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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:17 am 
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I know the usual battleground passages that are debated on in the TNK about Yahshua. But I was going through Isaiah the other day and came across this one which I had almost forgot about and was wondering what the "ubelieving" (in Yahshua as Yah's literal Son, YHWH in flesh, and Mashiach of course) Jew says about this:

Isaiah 9

6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.



So we have this Child, this Son Who is born yet called GOD and the FATHER......

Just curious how this is viewed? If not Yahshua, who else?

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 8:54 am 
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JWs say he is Mighty God, not Almighty God. Jehovah is Almighty, Jesus is mighty. That's how they square it, anyway. They back themselves into a corner, however, when you bring up scriptures that state there is no other God but YHWH.

You can't have it both ways.

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:52 am 
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One of my all time favorite passages, Isaiah 9, it is one of those "atomic" moments when YHWH appears from out of the ether and declares himself the King of the universe. Not only is he the Almighty Elohim, but he is more properly the "Father OF Everlasting," in other words, he comes from himself, he flows from out of the projection of his own image, the Father to the Son, the Yahshua from the YHWH. Even Maimonides saw the Messiah in Isaiah 9. He is THE Man who in the beginning created the heavens and the earth, who brooded over the dark waters of the deep to study his own image that he would fuse into Adam. He is the Consciousness behind the particle, and he particulates himself into the ovum of the matrix, takes upon human form, lives a human life, speaks his pure Way, leads us to still waters...

He is all, and in all, and through all.

Messiah is coming back, so get ready for him to come sup at your dining table. Come Yahshua!

Zechariah 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest; 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 10:14 pm 
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Good ole Zechariah! Thanks Jon! And it even says he's a MAN!!! Both king AND Priest!


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Texas Jon wrote:
...... He is THE Man who in the beginning created the heavens and the earth, who brooded over the dark waters of the deep to study his own image that he would fuse into Adam. He is the Consciousness behind the particle, and he particulates himself into the ovum of the matrix, takes upon human form, lives a human life, speaks his pure Way, leads us to still waters...




This is incredibly deep and you never cease to blow my mind, TJ! Thanks for this.

:yahoo:

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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Toshav wrote:
JWs say he is Mighty God, not Almighty God. Jehovah is Almighty, Jesus is mighty. That's how they square it, anyway. They back themselves into a corner, however, when you bring up scriptures that state there is no other God but YHWH.

You can't have it both ways.


Does Scripture really teach "there is no other God but YHWH"?

Quote:
EXODUS 15:11 "Who is like You, O LORD, among the gods? Who is like You, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? (NKJV)

PSALM 82:1 <A Psalm of Asaph.> God has taken His place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods He holds judgment:
2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the orphan; maintain the right of the lowly and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk around in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I say, "You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince."
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth; for all the nations belong to you! (NRSV)

PSALM 86:8 There is none like You among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like Yours. (ESV)

PSALM 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, a great King above all gods. (CSB)

PSALM 96:4 For the LORD is great and greatly to be praised; He is to be feared above all gods. (NKJV)

PSALM 97:7 All who serve carved images, those who boast in idols, will be put to shame. All the gods must worship Him. (CSB)

PSALM 136:2 Oh, give thanks to the God of gods! For His mercy endures forever. (NKJV)

PSALM 138:1 A Psalm of David. I will praise You with my whole heart; before the gods I will sing praises to You. (NKJV)

1 CORINTHIANS 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (NIV)

Scripture says there are many gods. But it does teach that there is no other God LIKE YHVH. This includes His firstborn son, Yeshua, as he himself confessed after his resurrection:

Quote:
JOHN 20:17 "Stop holding onto me," Yeshua said to her, "because I haven't yet gone back to the Father. But go to my brothers, and tell them that I am going back to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (CJB)



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:57 am 
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nabi wrote:
[size=125]Does Scripture really teach "there is no other God but YHWH"?


The short answer is yes.

Is 44:6 - Thus says YHWH... I am the First and the Last, besides me there is no god.



There are no other true gods. Any other gods are either imaginary, lifeless idols, or the adversary or demons masquerading as gods:

1 Chron. 16:26, Ps. 96:5 - For ALL the gods of the peoples are idols, but YHWH made the heavens.


So if anyone believes Y'shua is just a god, they have a problem. This scripture tells us ALL gods are idols. If one believes Y'shua is just a god and not THE Almighty, then he has made him to be an idol.





This is probably splitting hairs and in the end we would likely be in complete agreement on this (except, of course, if we ventured over to the deity of the messiah), but there is no other true god.

I understand scripture calls HaShatan the "god" of this world, but it is actually inferring he --and the world -- has set him up a false god. His rule is restricted and temporal. YHWH is the true El. I think the scriptures you provided don't prove the existence of other gods, but the perception of other gods. Of course if one broke it down to the true Hebrew meaning of the word god (mighty one) one could make the argument that powers and principalities are, indeed, mighty ones. But in the exegetical context of scripture, one must conclude no other true God but YHWH exists. We can't ignore Is. 44:6.


Incidently, the talmud also teaches gods don't really exist.

"GEMARA. Our Rabbis taught: Philosophers asked the elders in Rome, 'If your God has no desire for idolatry, why does He not abolish it?' They replied, 'If it was something of which the world has no need that was worshipped, He would abolish it; but people worship the sun, moon, stars and planets; should He destroy the Universe on account of fools!"
(Babylonian Talmud, Tractate ‘Abodah Zarah 54b).

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:31 am 
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[quote="nabi"]Does Scripture really teach "there is no other God but YHWH"?[quote]

Yep. No other beside Him.

Isa 44:8 ‘Do not fear, nor be afraid. Have I not since made you hear, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there an Eloah besides Me? There is no other Rock, I know not one.’ ”

Isa 44:9 Those who make an idol, all of them are emptiness, and their delights do not profit. And they are their own witnesses; they neither see nor know, so that they are put to shame.

Isa 44:10 Who would form a mighty one or cast an idol that is of no value?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:06 am 
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How could he be all alone if we are in him and manifestations of his mind? He is the Original Seed, the Prototype, the One and Only who became many seeds, the loaf of bread, the "trees that clap their hands," the "living stones," that combined City of the Living YHWH.

We are created a little lower than the angels but the earthly offspring of YHWH who breathed his lives into us, and we are in him and projections of him if we are those sons who believe in him, predestinated unto him.

There is no other Rock, but many pebbles that came from him...

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 15:15 From now on I call you not servants; for the servant knows not what his lord does: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

It is what it is, that We, his Family, are for him, in him, through him, by him, and from him manifestations of his House, his People, his Sons, his Friends, and yes, we are immortal gods of his Court, for "the Spirit and the Bride say 'Come!'", and we shall overcome the dragon's wrath...


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