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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 8:22 am 
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Found this great video posted on Zach's site in regard's to refuting the claim by many Jews (especially all over youtube) that Yahshua was related to the cursed descendants of Jeconiah, thereby being disqualified from being the Messiah and the Root of David. Hint: There were TWO Jeconiahs!!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4v1UEZb ... r_embedded


Learned a lot from this! Awesome!!

:s_thumbsup

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Here is an additional 'attack' :rolleyes:









There are some Scriptures claimed by Christians & "Messianic Jews" to be prophecies about the Messiah that Traditional Judaism rejects as Messianic prophecies. Likewise, there are some Scriptures claimed by Traditional Judaism as Messianic Prophecies that are rejected by Christians. Yet, even if you eliminate these discrepancies, there are Scriptures that are claimed by both sides as being Messianic prophecies, that actually prove that Yeshua cannot possibly be the Messiah. I am endeavoring in this essay to only prove one point, based on Scripture which is considered Messianic prophecy by both sides. This one point, when looked at with an unbiased eye must lead one to the conclusion that Yeshua is not the Messiah prophesied about in the Jewish Scriptures.

Premise: Messiah must be born of the lineage of David, and of Solomon his son.

According to literature put out by the "Messianic Jewish Movement International," the reference given for proof of the fact that Messiah would be from the lineage of David is 2 Samuel 7:12-13. This reads (in the NKJV):

When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

On the surface this appears to simply be a prophecy that G-d is going to put on the throne a physical descendant of David, and that he will build a house for G-d. If we are also to take this as a Messianic prophecy, then it follows that this Messiah must be through Solomon since it specifically mentions that he will build a house for G-d (the Temple which Solomon built). The prophecy continues in verse 16:

And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.

A confirmation of this is found in 1 Kings 2:4 where it says,

...you shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.
In 1 Chronicles 17: 11-14 G-d says that this is a promise forever. In 2 Chronicles 7:16 there is reference to the fact that this is only if they follow G-d’s ways. However, this is only important as it applies to the fact that there is not now, and there has not been at other times since, an actual king in Israel. It is not significant as this is applied to this promise that all the kings of Israel from that time forward will be descendants of Solomon. In other words, so long as there is a king on the throne, he will be a descendant of Solomon, that is a promise forever. However, if the king or the nation of Israel itself is disobedient to G-d, there will be no king or kingdom and the nation will be the laughingstock of the world. This does not mean, however that G-d would put a king on the throne who is not a descendant of Solomon. It is interesting to note that not only does the verse in 2 Samuel mention Solomon by his deeds, but this prophecy of a man on the throne is again repeated, to Solomon by his father David. In 1 Chronicles 22:9-11 it says,
Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies all around. His name shall be Solomon, for I will give peace and quietness to Israel in his days. He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.
In summary, G-d promises that the Messiah will be a descendant of David, and he will be a king. We saw in the preceding verses that all kings that G-d puts on the throne of Israel will come through Solomon. It is interesting to note that the one time that Israel tried to have a king, who was not a descendent of David, the results were disastrous.
When we look in Jeremiah, we find yet another prophecy concerning David’s throne. Jeremiah 22:28-29 is talking about David’s descendent Jeconiah and says about him in verse 30,

Thus says the Lord: "write this man down as childless, a man who shall not prosper in his days, for none of his descendents shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David, and ruling anymore in Judah.”

This verse tells us that although all the future kings of Israel will be from David, none of them will be a descendent of Jeconiah. So what is so important about this verse? Well it is very important because it affects who can and who cannot be the Messiah. "Messianic" scholars assert that the curse of Jeconiah was taken away. They reference Haggai 2:21-23 as proof of this. It reads,
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying: "I will shake heaven and earth. I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms; I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms. I will overthrow the chariots and those who ride in them; the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother." "In that day" says the Lord of hosts, "I will take you, Zerubbabel My servant, the son of Shealtiel," says the Lord, "and will make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you," says the Lord of hosts.
I do not think that this prophecy has even come true yet, for one very good reason, G-d has not yet destroyed the strength of the Gentile nations. Last I checked, the Gentile nations were still in power and still exercise a great deal of power over Israel. But, even if one were to say that this prophecy could have already been fulfilled, we have a problem. It is interesting that G-d chose to use the word “signet ring” in describing Zerubbabel the descendant of Jeconiah. At first glance, it may appear that the curse of Jeconiah has been lifted. After all, now G-d says that he has chosen Zerubbabel and that he is like a signet ring. G-d does not say here that he will now give any descendants of Zerubbabel the throne, all that is indicated here is that Zerubbabel has gained favor in the eyes of G-d. That does not mean that G-d has gone back on what he had said previously. And in fact, if we go back to the section that speaks of the curse of Jeconiah, we read (in verse 24),

As I live, says the Lord, though Coniah [another name for Jechoniah] the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah were the signet on My right hand, yet I would pluck you off.

It is significant that G-d used the same wording in both sections as if to make sure that we understand that this does not mean that he will once again have a descendent on the throne. He says here that even if he considers Jeconiah (or his offspring) as a signet, it does not change the fact that he will not have any more descendents on the throne. An interesting point to note is that following the end of Jeremiah 22 where it says that Jeconiah will never have a descendent on the throne, chapter 23 goes on to warn against teachers (shepherds) who cause G-d’s people to be scattered and destroyed. Then he goes on to tell about the Messiah (a branch of righteousness from David). It appears that it is almost a contrast to the previous chapter.
Having established that the Messiah will be a descendent of King David through Solomon, and that it cannot be through the line of Jeconiah, let us look at the genealogies given in the books of Matthew and Luke.

Before we even get started with breaking down the genealogy of Yeshua and proving that he cannot be the Messiah, let us examine one other critical issue. In all of the gospels it is emphasized that Yeshua is born from a virgin. Joseph is not the father of Yeshua, G-d is. That being the case, we have two problems.

Problem #1 – Joseph’s genealogy means absolutely nothing if he is not the father of Yeshua. One cannot inherit tribal lineage or land through adoption. If a Cohen (Priest) were to adopt a child, that child would not become a Cohen. This is why we are exhorted to give money and food to the Priest, the Widow (or orphan) and the Proselyte. These are those who have no inheritance and must be supported by the community in order to survive.

Problem #2 – G-d is not the seed of Solomon. If G-d is the father of Yeshua as the gospels assert, then Yeshua is not a descendant of Solomon. Yes, G-d can do anything he wants, but he doesn’t lie and He has already told us that Messiah would be a descendant of David through Solomon.

Looking at the genealogy in Matthew, even if we ignore the problems above, we have another problem –

Problem #1 – Jeconiah is in this list and we have already established that he cannot have a king on the throne and that the Messiah is a king.

Problem #2 – The Ryrie study Bible acknowledges this difficulty in a note under Matthew’s genealogy and basically asserts that though this is a problem, the genealogy in Luke negates this issue.

Now what are we to think? If the Ryrie study Bible acknowledges that this is a problem and tells us that the genealogy in Luke corrects this, what is the point of this genealogy in the first place? Do we just ignore the difficult parts and only pay attention to the parts that we like?

Having disqualified the genealogy in Matthew, let’s look at the genealogy in Luke.

Problem #1 – This is a different genealogy and yet still attributed to Joseph. Some say it is Mary’s genealogy. But, if it is Mary’s genealogy, we have another problem.

Problem #2 – Mary cannot confer the status of kingship. This is only transmitted through the male line (just as priesthood is). Even if Mary could confer kingship, we have another problem.

Problem #3 – Mary (if this is indeed her genealogy) is a descendant of Nathan. Nathan is a brother of Solomon, it is not through Solomon. Even if the kingship could go through Nathan, we have another problem.

Problem #4 – There are two people in this genealogy named Shealtiel and Zerubbabel and they are descendents of Jeconiah according to Matthew 1:12 and Jeconiah cannot be an ancestor of the Messiah. We also have another problem.

Problem #5 – In Matthew, Jeconiah is listed as a descendent of Solomon. This is the correct Genealogy for Jeconiah. In fact, to Matthew’s credit, except for leaving out a handful of people along the way, the account is accurate according to 1 & 2 Kings. Many scholars have asserted that Luke was a doctor, and therefore kept very good notes and gave a very accurate accounting of Yeshua’s life. Why then is his genealogy totally inaccurate? Did he not do his research? According to Luke, Shealtiel and Zerubbabel (descendents of Jeconiah) are listed as having come through Nathan. However, this is not accurate at all. Jeconiah is a descendant of Solomon, not Nathan. So, the question is, is Mary (if this is indeed supposed to be her genealogy, and if that even mattered in establishing Messiahship) a descendant of Solomon or of Nathan? If she is a descendant of Solomon then Luke has outright lied. If she is a descendant of Nathan then that automatically disqualifies her anyway. Another issue is that Jeconiah the troublemaker in this whole thing is a descendant of Solomon and not Nathan.

It would appear to me that the “Church Fathers” that decided which books would be included in the Christian bible didn’t do enough research. Which also leads one to question the Christian belief that the New Testament is the “inerrant word of G-d”. I don’t know about the Christian god, but my G-d doesn’t make such obvious mistakes. Another interesting point to note is that in 1 Timothy 1:3-4, Paul writes,

…that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables or endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.”

Perhaps the reason that Paul felt it necessary to exhort his followers not to get bogged down with genealogies which will eventually cause division is because even at that time he may have realized that there was a problem with the genealogy listed for Yeshua and perhaps this was already an issue of concern over his qualifications as Messiah. As has been the history of my personal discussions with Christians, when something doesn’t make sense they say to simply “believe”.




Genealogy from David to Jeconiah according to Matthew (items in red are missing from this genealogy)

David — Solomon — Rehoboam — Abijah — Asa — Jehoshaphat — Jehoram — Ahaziah — Joash — Amaziah — Azariah (also called Uzziah) — Jotham — Ahaz — Hezekiah — Manasseh — Amon — Josiah — Jehoahaz (annointed by the people) — Jehoiakim (annointed by Pharaoh) — Jeconiah (also called Jehoiachin and Coniah) — Assir — Shealtiel — Zerubbabel

Genealogy from David to Jeconiah according to Luke (items in red are missing from this genealogy)

David — Nathan — Matththah — Menan — Melea — Eliakim — Jonan — Joseph — Judah — Simeon — Levi — Matthat — Jorim — Eliezer — Jose — Er — Elmodam — Cosam — Addi — Melchi — Neri — Jeconiah (also called Jehoiachin and Coniah) — Assir — Shealtiel — Zerubbabel

Genealogy from David to Jeconiah according to the Tenakh

David — Solomon — Rehoboam (1 Kings 14:21) — Abijam (1 Kings 14:31) — Asa (1 Kings 15:8) — Jehoshaphat (1 Kings 22:41) — Jehoram (2 Kings 8:16) — Ahaziah (2 Kings 8:25) — Joash (2 Kings 11:2) — Amaziah (2 Kings 14:1) — Azariah (also Uzziah) ( 2 Kings 15:1) — Jotham (2 Kings 15:32) — Ahaz (2 Kings 16:1) — Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:1) — Manasseh (2 Kings 20:21) — Amon (2 Kings 21:18) — Josiah (2 Kings 21:26) — Jehoahaz (annointed by the people)(2 Kings 23:30) — Jehoiakim (annointed by Pharaoh) (2 Kings 23:34) — Jeconiah (also called Jehoiachin and Coniah) (2 Kings 23:6) — Assir (1 Chronicles 3:17) — Shealtiel — Zerubbabel (Jeremiah 2:2)







http://countermissionary.org/articles/D ... essiah.htm


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:54 pm 
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@ 6:23-on ..... the Old Testament nevers says or gives any kind of clue....... ....buuuut the NEW TESTAMENT does give us a clue...

Exactly.

If it doesn't say what you need it to say...
..make it say what you want it to say.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:11 am 
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Simone wrote:
@ 6:23-on ..... the Old Testament nevers says or gives any kind of clue....... ....buuuut the NEW TESTAMENT does give us a clue...

Exactly.

If it doesn't say what you need it to say...
..make it say what you want it to say.


Well that's the point. The questioning Jew wants it to say something else which it doesn't. So they can't make a solid argument either way as well.

At least one side carries more weight and credibility with historical background using both the Tanakh and Renewed Covenant Scriptures while the other side is grabbing at straws.

Sure, one may refuse to believe anything the Renewed Covenant Scriptures offers, but it certainly fills in the gaps where the Tanakh is silent (and I believe Yah left these "silent" for several reasons....something Temu has touched upon several times here). The arguing Jew is left with really no argument at all other than "well it doesn't exactly say." Then they are having to look at pretty much discrediting the entirety of the Renewed Covenant Scriptures as false based on emotions and that 1st century Jews who were actually there and knew much more than any of us know today and were actual Apostles of Yahshua conspired to "make things what they want it to say"....

And that in itself is a silly stance because if you watch the video, you can clearly see a "discrepancy" just using the Tanakh alone. So the information found in the B'rit Chadashah Scriptures actually VALIDATES the authenticity of the Tanakh. Imagine that.

:s_omg

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:38 am 
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I think the Torah contains everything, and if something has to be added, then there is a problem. In fact, YAH even commands that we are not to add or diminish.
If you need to add to make it work, it is false.


The video was nothing more than the narrator's opinion/ idea. His idea that someone's name *may also* have been changed.(to what he says) No proof that it was.

I think the NT is easy to discredit without any emotion whatsoever. Just on facts. One side carries more weight- you mean Christianity? With all the lies and falsehood day in and day out that the church states, yeah, no weight whatsoever Imo.
If you lie about one thing, you will lie about another.

I had already looked at this subject a good while back, that video has no footing, IMO of course.


What you try to use as a hot button term - 'attack' - (to incite emotion from the reader) is nothing more than pointing out where things don't work.
Course that is not a subject to actually bring up, is it? But you are looking for 'truth'.....only the one you want to see.


Jesus is God... worried about people 'attacking God'...that is almost comical.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:11 am 
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Simone wrote:
I think the Torah contains everything, and if something has to be added, then there is a problem. In fact, YAH even commands that we are not to add or diminish.
If you need to add to make it work, it is false.


The video was nothing more than the narrator's opinion/ idea. His idea that someone's name *may also* have been changed.(to what he says) No proof that it was.



I had already looked at this subject a good while back, that video has no footing, IMO of course.....



It certainly does. But EVERYTHING certainly isn't always spelled out. Many things, especially the deep things of Yah require delving deeper....something I believe we can agree upon.

But I still fail to see where anything has been "added"???

And let's not forget, from a believer's standpoint, the B'rit Chadashah is just as much Scripture as the Torah. Torah just drips all over and through the B'rit Chadashah.....minus the man-made traditons of course.



And please elaborate how this video "has no footing".....you can't get any more thorough and detailed a rebuttal than this video. It addresses every single angle of this Jeconiah issue.

It sounds like you have a real emotional response to "Christianity" which most of us here already have as well. I think if you read our threads it's pretty clear we also don't buy what is "Christianity" today. Drop the false teachings of Scripture by "Christians" while also dropping the false teachings of Scripture by Judaism....and this is where folks like us find ourselves. I agree...Christianity today is total bunk. But that's because they don't teach Torah and the B'rit Chadashah.

:search:

I believe it's actually very obvious using just the Tanakh alone that there are 2 different Jeconiah's. But I guess you're cool with keeping the discrepencies?

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Quote:
Problem #1 – Joseph’s genealogy means absolutely nothing if he is not the father of Yeshua. One cannot inherit tribal lineage or land through adoption.


David himself inherited the KINGSHIP of Solomon through adoption. Remember, he and Jonathan became 'brothers' via adoption.

The fact of the matter is, Kingships themselves were a problem for Israel because they rejected Yah.

According to the argument presented from which the above quote comes from, NO earthly individual can become Messiah due to the cursing of that king, because NONE would qualify, therefore the quotes in the prophets where they mourn over the returning Messiah, the one whom they have pierced, would be a false prophecy.

Therefore, the entire argument poses problems for the Tanakh also! One, there will be NO messiah because he'd have to be a descendant of David, and nobody can qualify due to the cursed king. That pretty much blows both ''religions'' right out of the water! It blows out Tanakh for predicting the impossible, and blows out Messianic Judaism/christianity for thinking the Tanakh's prophecies were true.

Another problem that I see is that if you aren't born into Israel, you can never convert. That would be a hippocracy because people DO convert and when they do, they are conferred with all of the rights and responsibilities of ..for the time being, Judah, which also includes the land. In Torah Yah himself said that there will be ONE law for Israel AND the converts!

So, I suggest that the presented argument is flawed.

More than once Yah has bypassed a first born, or a King even (such as Solomon) to put in place an individual HE chooses.

Also, descendants of Nathan became kings in Babylon (Exilarchs) and were considered legitimate. I have NO idea which rabbinic rules and twistabouts are utilized to legitimize the offspring of Nathan being entitled to a kingly line, but somehow it was. Eventually it evolved into the Divine Right of Kings in Europe as the descendants of David continued on in a kingly line through Europe for quite some time! So I have to ask, with regard to Brit Hadasha if they considered Nathan's line legit, and it was considered legit as far back as Babylon, what changed between then and now to de-legitimize it?

One other teeny twist...Pregnant Mary could have been privately divorced by Joseph, but instead he chose to marry and give the child his name. NObody would have been the wiser except that she gave birth shortly after her marriage to a full term baby and not a preemie. But for all anybody knew, he WAS the child of Joseph. Certainly legally. And YAH says...well, I already dealt with that.

As far as lineages in the OT, sometimes they are missing people too. A grandson will be considered a son of an ancestor. I spent a lot of time trying to piece together lineages and genealogies to figure out who was whom and who became which group of people in order to better understand the wars and prophecies.

And as for Paul talking about genealogies being useless..he's right. Ruth, the GENTILE and Rahab the Gentile, like Abraham the GENTILE became one of the people due to the condition of their HEARTS. That's the point Paul made. Just because someone is born a Jew/Israelite doesn't make him one. Practically all of those at Sinai were good proof of that along with the subsequent history of faithlessness resulting in divorce and explusion from the land and diaspora which continues to this day.

Rabbinical obedience doesn't make one an Israelite in Yah's eyes, only in the eyes of religon. Rabbi's are just like you and I. They write things that sound good after studying. That doesn't mean they are correct :)


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:29 pm 
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MountainRecluse wrote:
Drop the false teachings of Scripture by "Christians" while also dropping the false teachings of Scripture by Judaism....and this is where folks like us find ourselves.


Amein. And that path is narrow. Both the others are in a ditch of their own making.

I have more hope for Judah though. One of these days they will recognise that the Rock will not be smote twice, and that the bruised and pierced, kosher for Passover matza they have been eating for millennia actually has meaning beyond the veil.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:11 pm 
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temu wrote:
MountainRecluse wrote:
Drop the false teachings of Scripture by "Christians" while also dropping the false teachings of Scripture by Judaism....and this is where folks like us find ourselves.


Amein. And that path is narrow. Both the others are in a ditch of their own making.

I have more hope for Judah though. One of these days they will recognise that the Rock will not be smote twice, and that the bruised and pierced, kosher for Passover matza they have been eating for millennia actually has meaning beyond the veil.



Same here, brother.

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:14 pm 
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temu wrote:
MountainRecluse wrote:
Drop the false teachings of Scripture by "Christians" while also dropping the false teachings of Scripture by Judaism....and this is where folks like us find ourselves.


Amein. And that path is narrow. Both the others are in a ditch of their own making.

I have more hope for Judah though. One of these days they will recognise that the Rock will not be smote twice, and that the bruised and pierced, kosher for Passover matza they have been eating for millennia actually has meaning beyond the veil.



:good:

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