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 Post subject: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:38 pm 
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Jazzy, this is for you!

http://www.elijahnet.net/modern%20rabbis.html

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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:08 am 
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Thank you (even though I am not Jazzy)..I am so thankful to see others looking at what we have been told are Messianic prophecies. When in context it doesnt fit always.

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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:47 pm 
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I was just looking at that page Lemon..

She's going to have to copy/paste the entire document into a word processor, and then paragraph it so she can read it. It's too 'busy'..even my eyes are swimming lol!

Otherwise, it's an interesting article!

Also, another one attributed to prophecy is the one that says "Rachel weeping for her children because they are no more"..I can't recall the write up I'd read about it but it was actually something that applied to another event.

However, a prophecy can have more than one application. I feel the need to say this because at one time I was struggling with the NT, myself, and some of these very prophecies were the reason why..until I became aware of multi-purpose prophecies.

I think it was Mrs. N who posted something recently from Ecclesiastes regarding things that repeat because there's really nothing new under the sun, but I forget the 'address' and exact wording. It's been a really long day and I'm a tad bit tired.

Also, in my bible on a blank page I have some notes where I was puzzling out the virginity of Mary, and why I think she'd have to have been a virgin. I wrote it about 20 years or so ago. Maybe I'll share it someday.


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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:30 pm 
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"What shall be has been before Ecc. 3:15

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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:15 pm 
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armourbearer wrote:
"What shall be has been before Ecc. 3:15


Yep, that's the one! TY!


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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:00 am 
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Judith wrote:
armourbearer wrote:
"What shall be has been before Ecc. 3:15


Yep, that's the one! TY!


Actually, I shared the verse from Eccl., but I used Chapter 1, verses 9-10. Eccl. 3:15 is a 2nd fold witness.

I had on a bible movie, and it came to me while watching the part of the order & execution of the male children of Israel (Re: Exodus 1:8-22) how it so related to the same thing happening at the time of Yeshua's birth (re:Matthew 2:12-21).

And the thought of how YHVH promised to raise up a prophet just like Moishe (Moses) (RE: DEUTERONOMY 18:15-18; Acts 3:22-23; 7:37), and similar events happened in the beginning of both their lives. I certainly see a confirmation of double application of prophecy.

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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Thanks SherShalom!

As is typical of me..I read, study, pray, read some more and something jumps out to slap me upside the head, but then I can't quite "recall who done it" lol!


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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Thanks Lemon, I have read part of it and will go over it again and take notes, sure appreciate it.


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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:11 pm 
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You make me research stuff I take for granted, so I appreciate it too ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:33 am 
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http://messiahtruth.wordpress.com/



More stuffs for you

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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:18 pm 
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lemon_fresh wrote:
You make me research stuff I take for granted, so I appreciate it too ;)




Thanks. :s_smile I still have to get to that, will do very shortly. I really appreciate everything you offer, you really need to be a messianic preacher. :s_smile


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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:20 pm 
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Ok lemon, will start giving my thoughts. Sorry it took me a bit, Judy is right on the money, some things in large paragraphs are more difficult for me to read due to my eyes tracking funky, so I had attempted to read a good portion of it before and got stalled out because of the format.


This jumped out at me early on, it looked like this really was a point. So I sat down and went to check it.



The first claim of some modern rabbis: The Hebrew word "almah" does not mean 'virgin,' but 'young woman' or 'young maiden.'
In Gen.24:43, almah is used to describe Rebekah, who is also called betulah. She was a young maiden, a virgin

here is verse 43 from chabad including the hebrew. The first thing I noticed is that this is not describing Rebekah, it is 'a maiden' not speaking of Rebekah specifically, as he was speaking of when had not seen her (or any of the women) yet.



43. Behold, I am standing by the water fountain. When a maiden comes out to draw [water], I will say to her, 'Please, give me a little water to drink from your pitcher.'
מג. הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי נִצָּב עַל עֵין הַמָּיִם וְהָיָה הָעַלְמָה הַיֹּצֵאת לִשְׁאֹב וְאָמַרְתִּי אֵלֶיהָ הַשְׁקִינִי נָא מְעַט מַיִם מִכַּדֵּךְ:

הָעַלְמָה
הָעַלְמָה (ha'almah) (young maiden)(could also be a virgin)







Next he says this


In Ex.2:8, the word is used to describe the girl Miriam, who watched her baby brother Moses


Exodus 2:8
8. Pharaoh's daughter said to her, "Go!" So the girl went and called the child's mother.
ח. וַתֹּאמֶר לָהּ בַּת פַּרְעֹה לֵכִי וַתֵּלֶךְ הָעַלְמָה וַתִּקְרָא אֶת אֵם הַיָּלֶד:


ok, same here
הָעַלְמָה (ha'almah)



now for Is. 7:14


14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
יד. לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא לָכֶם אוֹת הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ עִמָּנוּ אֵל:


same.




hmmm.

I looked all three up at chabad, so there is no difference in interpretation.

This person proved their point- the two virgins above were described as ha'almah. The same word is used to describe the woman in Isaiah 7:14, who if is Isaiah's wife, would not be a virgin at this point after already having one child.


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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:42 pm 
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I went back to look for another verse where it might be describing only Rebekah, not the other maidens.




16. Now the maiden was of very comely appearance, a virgin, and no man had been intimate with her, and she went down to the fountain, and she filled her pitcher and went up.

טז. וְהַנַּעֲרָה טֹבַת מַרְאֶה מְאֹד בְּתוּלָה וְאִישׁ לֹא יְדָעָהּ וַתֵּרֶד הָעַיְנָה וַתְּמַלֵּא כַדָּהּ וַתָּעַל

בְּתוּלָה
bəṯulāh


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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:51 am 
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Simone wrote:
lemon_fresh wrote:
You make me research stuff I take for granted, so I appreciate it too ;)




Thanks. :s_smile I still have to get to that, will do very shortly. I really appreciate everything you offer, you really need to be a messianic preacher. :s_smile



No preaching from me. Perhaps teacher ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:06 pm 
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So, are you all saying that Mary was NOT a virgin even though she was only betrothed, and not yet married?

If she WASN'T a virgin, then ANYBODY could be the father in which case when the priests referred to Y'shual as a 'bastard', they would have been correct.

She would have been engaged in willful sin.

Even Joseph couldn't admit to have been her first.


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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:13 pm 
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I can't speak for the others, Judy, but at the literal level I don't think the Isaiah verse even pertains to Mary in any way. JMO. I think it is speaking of Isaiah's wife, who it had been speaking of during these previous and following verses. It is possible I will change my mind by seeing something else at some point.

ME made a good point over at SB, in that there was no way for Mary to be called sinless before getting pregnant, anyway, if going by christian doctrine- since christian doctrine says that all people are born sinners after Adam. So therefore Mary was already a sinner before getting pregnant by the Holy Spirit.


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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Simone wrote:
I can't speak for the others, Judy, but at the literal level I don't think the Isaiah verse even pertains to Mary in any way. JMO. I think it is speaking of Isaiah's wife, who it had been speaking of during these previous and following verses. It is possible I will change my mind by seeing something else at some point.

ME made a good point over at SB, in that there was no way for Mary to be called sinless before getting pregnant, anyway, if going by christian doctrine- since christian doctrine says that all people are born sinners after Adam. So therefore Mary was already a sinner before getting pregnant by the Holy Spirit.


According to the rules of the Hebrew grammar a word should end with a closed mem, not an open one.

Note in regards to this same "child," [Isa.9:6]
'increase' is unusual and even exceptional. Why? It has a closed mem in the word l’marbeh at the beginning; the only word in the entire scriptures with the closed mem.

What is the significance of this? It's clear it's a prophecy of the future Messiah to come.

BTW, many Rabbis acknowledge this before Messiah's birth..


Also a closed mem would be a closed womb (me'eh); and an open mem would be [the opening] of a womb. This would be miraculous if the woman knew no man as was the case of Mary, Joseph's wife.

This would be the 'sod' level of teaching/understanding and would make this child, not Isaiah's, but a future child.

One who would be be conceived/concealed in a "closed" womb.

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 Post subject: Re: Isaiah 7
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Thanks AB, I will look at that.

I know I have asked this before, but doesn't something have to be present in the literal level in order to be present in the upper levels?


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