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 Post subject: John 1
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:45 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: John 1
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:06 am 
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I could ramble on about this, lots of things in my head, but I'll listen instead.


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 Post subject: Re: John 1
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:05 am 
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Looking "UP" when praying to God discloses how far away He is. Don't look up, He's within those keeping the commandments...temple made without physical stones..but made with living stones..

How cool is that way of putting it, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: John 1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:32 am 
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lemon_fresh wrote:
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Messiah was the pre-existing "Word"; Messiah is not YHVH the Father.

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JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word [logos], and the Word [logos] was with God, and the Word [logos] was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God. (NKJV)


Here is what the 1st-century CE Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria said about the logos:

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Now the image of God is the Word [logos], by which all the world was made. (p. 541, The Works of Philo, "The Special Laws, I," translated by C.D. Yonge)

And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to His first-born Word [logos], the eldest of His angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the Authority, and the Name of God, and the Word [logos], and Man according to God's image, and He who sees Israel. (p. 247, The Works of Philo, "On the Confusion of Tongues," translated by C.D. Yonge)

For as those who are not able to look upon the sun itself, look upon the reflected rays of the sun as the sun itself, and upon the halo around the moon as if it were the moon itself; so also do those who are unable to bear the sight of God, look upon His image, His angel Word [logos], as Himself. (p. 386, The Works of Philo, "On Dreams, I," translated by C.D. Yonge)

Why is it that He speaks as if of some other god, saying that He made man after the image of God, and not that He made man after His own image? (Genesis 9:6) Very appropriately and without any falsehood was this oracular sentence uttered by God, for no mortal thing could have been formed on the similitude of the supreme Father of the universe, but only after the pattern of the second deity, who is the Word [logos] of the supreme Being... (p. 834, The Works of Philo, "Questions and Answers on Genesis, II," translated by C.D. Yonge)

The shadow of God is His Word [logos], which He used like an instrument when He was making the world. And this shadow, and, as it were, model, is the archetype of other things. For, as God is Himself the model of that image which He has now called a shadow, so also that image is the model of other things, as he showed when he commenced giving the law to the Israelites, and said, "And God made man according to the image of God [Gen. 1:26]." As the image was modelled according to God, and as man was modelled according to the image, which thus received the power and character of the model. (p. 61, The Works of Philo, "Allegorical Interpretation, III," translated by C.D. Yonge)

For the abrupt Rock is the Wisdom of God, which being both sublime and the first of things He quarried out of His own powers, and of it He gives drink to the souls that love God; and they, when they have drunk, are also filled with the most universal manna; for manna is called something which is the primary genus of every thing. But the most universal of all things is God; and in the second place the Word [logos] of God. (p. 47, The Works of Philo, "Allegorical Interpretation, II," translated by C.D. Yonge)

He nourishes us with His own Word [logos], which is the most universal of all things, for manna being interpreted means "what?" and "what" is the most universal of all things; for the Word [logos] is over all the world, and is the most ancient, and the most universal of all things that are created. (p. 70, The Works of Philo, "Allegorical Interpretation, III," translated by C.D. Yonge)

And the Father who created the universe has given to His archangelic and most ancient Word [logos] a pre-eminent gift, to stand on the confines of both, and separated that which had been created from the Creator. And this same Word [logos] is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race. And the Word [logos] rejoices in the gift, and, exulting in it, announces it and boasts of it, saying, "And I stood in the midst, between the Lord and you;" neither being uncreate[d] as God, nor yet created as you... (p. 293, The Works of Philo, "Who Is the Heir of Divine Things," translated by C.D. Yonge)

And the most ancient Word [logos] of the living God is clothed with the word as with a garment, for it has put on earth, and water, and air, and fire, and the things which proceed from these elements. But the particular soul is clothed with the body, and the mind of the wise man is clothed with the virtues. And it is said that he will never take the mitre off from his head, he will never lay aside the kingly diadem, the symbol of an authority which is not indeed absolute, but only that of a viceroy, but which is nevertheless an object of admiration. Nor will he "rend his clothes;" for the Word [logos] of the living God being the bond of every thing, as has been said before, holds all things together, and binds all the parts, and prevents them from being loosened or separated. (p. 331, The Works of Philo, "On Flight and Finding," translated by C.D. Yonge)

The merciful power of God is the covering of the ark, and He calls it mercy-seat. The images of the creative power and of the kingly power are the winged cherubim which are placed upon it. But the divine Word [logos] which above these does not come into any visible appearance, inasmuch as it is not like to any of the things that come under the external senses, but is itself an image of God, the most ancient of all the objects of intellect in the whole world, and that which is placed in the closest proximity to the only truly existing God, without any partition or distance being interposed between them: for it is said, "I will speak unto thee from above the mercy-seat, in the midst, between the cherubim [Exo. 25:22]." So that the Word [logos] is, as it were, the charioteer of the powers, and He who utters it is the rider, who directs the charioteer how to proceed with a view to the proper guidance of the universe. (p. 330, The Works of Philo, "On Flight and Finding," translated by C.D. Yonge)

For God, like a shepherd and a king, governs (as if they were a flock of sheep) the earth, and the water, and the air, and the fire, and all the plants, and living creatures that are in them, whether mortal or divine... appointing as their immediate superintendent, His own right Reason [logos], His firstborn son, who is to receive the charge of this sacred company, as the lieutenant of the great king; for it is said somewhere, "Behold, I am He! I will send my messenger before thy face, who shall keep thee in the road [Exo. 23:20]." (p. 178, The Works of Philo, "On Husbandry," translated by C.D. Yonge)

For there are, as it seems, two temples belonging to God; one being this world, in which the high priest is the divine Word [logos], His own first-born son.... (p. 834, The Works of Philo, "On Dreams, I," translated by C.D. Yonge)


Seems to me that Philo would be in a position to better understand the 1st-century Jewish view of the "Word" (logos) than later scholars...


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 Post subject: Re: John 1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:19 pm 
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duckman1968 wrote:
If Philo is suggesting that the "word" is an angel, then I couldn't disagree more with him. Maybe I'm not reading him right.


Clearly the Word of YHVH was an "angel" ("the Angel of YHVH" spoken of often in the Tanakh). The word "angel" in both Hebrew and Greek primarily means "messenger." He was the principal messenger from YHVH the Father to mankind, and later specifically to the patriarchs and Israel.

duckman1968 wrote:
If the visions of Daniel are not to be unsealed until the time of the end (Dan 12:4), then I don't think Philo had a better understanding regarding the image of which Daniel saw, who by the way is drawn with clothes but garments are NOT recorded..... have a better understanding than those to which are alive during the time of the end; should that be us.


Actually, I said that Philo had a good understanding of the 1st-century Jewish conception of the Logos.

Shabbat shalom!


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 Post subject: Re: John 1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:18 pm 
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duckman1968 wrote:
A messenger cannot take upon the sins of mankind, only (the only One good can do that),and put an end to the marriage that can only be done by Him who was married. It's not possible neither physically nor spiritually. The one who marries either has to file for divorce by himself, or must himself die for the marriage to end.

It would be done by Him, not His messenger.

Blessings to you too nabi..


Why could a messenger NOT take our sins upon himself, if he had no sins of his own? The blood of sacrificial animals removed sins under the First Covenant.


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 Post subject: Re: John 1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:12 pm 
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duckman1968 wrote:
Clearly an angel of the Lord spoke to Israel, as in the angel speaking to Daniel to explain his visions, but a messenger didn't speak the world into existence.


No, a messenger didn't speak the world into existence. YHVH the Father spoke the world into existence through His messenger, called the Word or Wisdom (Pro. 8:30).

duckman1968 wrote:
nabi, the lives of Pharaoh's other children were not taken or killed, it was only the firstborn sons who were killed as the ransom for the physical nation at the ratification of the first covenant. Sinai is not the first covenant, the Passover liberation from Egypt is the first covenant to which the writer of Hebrews makes...the day when "the Lord took you by the hand and led you from Egypt".


Sorry duckman, but I have to disagree with you about the identity of the FIRST COVENANT. The liberation from Egypt set the stage for that FIRST COVENANT which was made at Sinai, as the author of Hebrews tells us:

Quote:
HEBREWS 8:7 For if that FIRST [covenant] had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a SECOND.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah --
9 not according to THE COVENANT that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My COVENANT, and I disregarded them, says the LORD."


There is no mention in the Bible of a covenant made at the time of the Passover. The covenant referenced here is the one made at Sinai, as subsequent comments by the author of Hebrews clearly shows:

Quote:
HEBREWS 9:1 Then indeed, even the FIRST [covenant] had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary.
2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary;
3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All,
4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the COVENANT;
5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.


The FIRST COVENANT made at Sinai contained the ordinances of divine worship. These were not made at the time of Passover in Egypt.

Quote:
HEBREWS 9:15 ¶ And for this reason He is the Mediator of the NEW COVENANT, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the FIRST COVENANT, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
18 Therefore not even the FIRST [covenant] was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." [Exo. 24:8]


The reference to Exodus 24:8 here leaves no doubt that the FIRST COVENANT is the one spoken at Mt. Sinai.


duckman1968 wrote:
Blood of bulls and goats didn't erase sins, it only covered them, for "there is a remembrance of sin each time the priest shed the blood of animals". (see Hebrews)


That sounds good, but it's not scriptural. The sins of Israel were "erased" on Yom Kippur ("the Day of Atonement") when they were covered. Let's look specifically at Leviticus 16, where the sacrifice of these "bulls and goats" is discussed:

Quote:
LEVITICUS 16:27 "The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. And they shall burn in the fire their skins, their flesh, and their offal.
28 Then he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.
29 This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you.
30 For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to CLEANSE you, that you may be CLEAN FROM ALL YOUR SINS before the LORD."


To be CLEANSED from their sins meant that the Israelites were FORGIVEN of their sins. Semantically, people who are cleansed from their sins have their sins "erased." Every Israelite had a "clean slate" after the sacrifices of Yom Kippur. This was accomplished by the blood of the bull and goat SIN OFFERINGS made on 10 Tishri.


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 Post subject: Re: John 1
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:34 am 
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I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, duckman. Shalom!


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 Post subject: Re: John 1
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:00 pm 
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I think I quite like you Nabi.

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 Post subject: Re: John 1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Yeramiyahu wrote:
I think I quite like you Nabi.


I believe that would put you in the minority here, my friend:-)

Shabbat shalom!


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