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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:25 pm 
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I have to say this is a pretty bizarre thing I stumbled upon a few weeks back and wanted to share here. Growing up as a Catholic, I never questioned the December 25th, Jesus' birthday thing. Never had to. Most other Christians I came across also believed in the December 25th birthday thing as well. The traditional Catholic churches I attended as a child never mixed the whole "Santa Claus" phenomena with their intent for the "nativity". The focus was always on Jesus, not on "Jolly ole St. Nick" stuffing his creepy, fat arse down my chimney to give me presents. Obviously, the RCC are the ones that certainly pushed the whole "St. Nick" thing appropriation from pagan practices....no surprise there, right?

Anyway, after getting into the "HRM" (and you all know I mean this in a very general sense....just as a general reference for our beliefs. I know there is much about the "HRM" that many of us here take much issue with), and started researching the pagan roots of things like "Christmas", "Easter", etc ....it was blatantly obvious the deception and mixing of the holy with the profane. My mind was settled 100% against the December 25th thing and just left it at that. I figured, as many do here, that Yeshua's birth was around the September/October time frame, Feast of Tabernacles/Sukkot.

I've seen and used myself as well a supposed letter from a bishop "admitting" that there was no real historical or Biblical reason for choosing December 25th as a birthday that was supposedly a pagan Tammuz/solstice celebration. Can't recall that source at the moment but here is where things get interesting....

The other day I came across an actual DEFENSE of the December 25th birthday date that I have personally NEVER seen ANYWHERE in the years haunting various forums or even off the internet. Someone here may be familiar with it. It was a new discovery for me. Even on Catholic forums I never seemed to see anyone make a believable and convincing argument utilizing historical sources, especially Biblical sources, for it's defense but I found this site page and it's pretty interesting to say the least. I'll post the general main points of the argument and the link to that page for further study:

These are not my words or site. I am placing these minimal quotations in "quotes" and referencing/citing the link to the original author and creator below:

Quote:
Answer to the Winter Soltice connection:

1. "Saturnalia commemorated the winter solstice. Yet the winter solstice falls on December 22. It is true that Saturnalia celebrations began as early as December 17 and extended till December 23. Still, the dates don’t match up."

Answer to the Sol Invictus argument:

2. Let us examine first the cult of the Unconquered Sun. The Emperor Aurelian introduced the cult of the Sol Invictus or Unconquered Sunto Rome in A.D. 274. Aurelian found political traction with this cult, because his own name Aurelianderives from the Latin word aurora denoting “sunrise.” Coins reveal that Emperor Aurelian called himself the Pontifex Solis or Pontiff of the Sun. Thus, Aurelian simply accommodated a generic solar cult and identified his name with it at the end of the third century.


Most importantly, there is no historical record for a celebration Natalis Sol Invictus on December 25 prior to A.D. 354


Answer to the "no shepards and sheep in the fields during winter":

3. Recall that Palestine is not England, Russia, or Alaska. Bethlehem is situated at the latitude of 31.7. My city of Dallas, Texas has the latitude of 32.8, and it’s still rather comfortable outside in December. As the great Cornelius a Lapide remarks during his lifetime, one could still see shepherds and sheep in the fields of Italy during late December, and Italy is at higher latitude than Bethlehem.

And an argument from Scripture itself (probably the biggest part I would like to focus on here):

"Now we move on to establishing the birthday of Christ from Sacred Scripture in two steps. The first step is to use Scripture to determine the birthday of Saint John the Baptist. The next step is using Saint John the Baptist’s birthday as the key for finding Christ’s birthday. We can discover that Christ was born in late December by observing first the time of year in which Saint Luke describes Saint Zacharias in the temple. This provides us with the approximate conception date of Saint John the Baptist. From there we can follow the chronology that Saint Luke gives, and that lands us at the end of December.

Saint Luke reports that Zacharias served in the “course of Abias” (Lk 1:5) which Scripture records as the eighth course among the twenty-four priestly courses (Neh 12:17). Each shift of priests served one week in the temple for two times each year. The course of Abias served during the eighth week and the thirty-second week in the annual cycle.[ii]However, when did the cycle of courses begin?


Josef Heinrich Friedlieb has convincingly established that the first priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the destruction of Jerusalem on the ninth day of the Jewish month of Av.[iii]Thus the priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the second week of Av. Consequently, the priestly course of Abias (the course of Saint Zacharias) was undoubtedly serving during the second week of the Jewish month of Tishri—the very week of the Day of Atonement on the tenth day of Tishri. In our calendar, the Day of Atonement would land anywhere from September 22 to October 8.


Zacharias and Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist immediately after Zacharias served his course. This entails that Saint John the Baptist would have been conceived somewhere around the end of September, placing John’s birth at the end of June, confirming the Catholic Church’s celebration of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24."



SOURCE and much more detailed discussion is here: http://taylormarshall.com/2012/12/yes-c ... ember.html





So what do you guys think? I'm really most interested in the Scriptural argument being made here in terms of the dates provided coinciding with the Biblical Feasts and Temple practices noted in Scripture. This was the first time I personally ran into an actual, detailed defense of the December 25th date and tradition. I've heard others make reference to such a defense but never this level of detail. I just quoted some parts of the argument, please read through the entire page to get all of the information being presented.

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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:02 pm 
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Time is a mathematical function of gravity, it measures the decay rate of heavy mass particles. Time essentially is one decaying moment into another. Time cannot be made holy by any man much less than a bass can make a section of a lake holy.

Only the Holy Days are seen in the creation P account, events or holy events which happened in the heavens which cast their shadows here into this realm.

Salvation for humanity is only seen the Holy Days of the Most High. Salvation for humankind is not seen in any of the holidays, and all center around commercialism.

Christmas is to worship the flesh of the man Jesus. He could not take on the sins of mankind until after He was baptized, when He got a second breath of life becoming the second Adam.

Christ Jesus told His disciples to go into the world and teach only those things that He taught them, and never did He tell them to worship his birth, no matter when it was.

This works for me.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:01 pm 
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also MR, there should be no arguing with anyone about how they want to worship. An ideology must be able to stand on its on meaning that if the ideology requires the use of force to convert someone, sometimes by deadly force as a consequence, then the idea cannot stand on its on and can easily be defeated.

My family will keep Christmas no matter what I say. The Christ told those around Him that "the fruit reflects it's seed, let him who has ears hear". Now, everyone standing around with physical ears heard His audible voice, but those with spiritual ears heard Moses, which according to scripture was no more than 120. Gather these in the first century with those in this era (the 153 large fish) which were caught when Christ Jesus said He would make the disciples fishers of men, you come up with 273, the number of preists required for the levitical preisthood.

The Elect will be an extremely small number of people in this era, this is the nation of Moses to which YHWH promised Moses that He'd make a nation of.

When the subject of December 25th comes up between my friends who are Catholic, I tell them that I'm not the enemy, that I am from where they come, and then I defer them to their recent leader, Pope Benedict. He went into detail about how Christ could not have been born on December 25th. There's a coup going on within the walls of the Vatican.

A Christian can read secular sources about Saturnalia, about Mithra, about pagan celebrations of the rebirth of the sun, with these celebrations going back to about when Moses led Israel out from Egypt—the solstice backs up about one day every 900 years; so about 3,600 years ago the solstice would have been on December 25th … did Egypt’s celebration of the rebirth of the sun on December 25th lead directly to the Passover liberation of Israel four months later? It's possible.

To take a peak into the heavens, a disciple born of spirit can "SEE" with eyes to see, that aren't physical, as to what really occurred.
The Apostle Paul gave us the first glimpse of scripture is to be read since the prophets of old recorded things in Hebraic poetry prose, by stating:

"If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last man Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.…Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven" (1 Cor 15:44-47, 49).

Christianity will do what Israel has done.

Exactly what is the difference between Christianity of today and ancient Israel or circumcised of flesh Israel? They have the same exact holidays. Christianity has Christmas, Easter..so and so, and it's recorded that Israel defiled themselves with these same holidays...they had to, since they (ancient Israel) is the shadow of Christianity. They are doing exactly what their shadow did. Exactly. You said it yourself, that you see the similarities.

But this predates Israel in Egypt. This goes back to the reason as to why Abraham was called. Around 2000 BC in Abraham's day, Baal worship and its pagan rites had so permeated the human race that God called Abraham out from it to be the progenitor of a nation of people (the Israelites or Jews) who would be instructed by God through Moses and the prophets to be a shining light and an example of godliness to the heathen nations and reveal to them God's scriptural plan of salvation (Genesis 11:26-12: 1-5; Exodus 19:5-6; Hebrews 11:8).

I copied this from some site years ago but cannot remember from where:

Quote:
This birthday of the sun god can be traced all the way back to ancient Babylon. In fact, most of our "modern Christian traditions" can be traced all the way back to ancient Babylon. According to ancient Babylonian tradition, Semiramis (who eventually became known as the goddess Astarte/Asherah/Ashtoreth/Isis/Ishtar/Easter in other pagan religions) claimed that after the untimely death of her son/husband Nimrod (yes she was married to her own son), a full grown evergreen tree sprang up overnight from a dead tree stump. Semiramis claimed that Nimrod would visit that evergreen tree and leave gifts each year on the anniversary of his birth, which just happened to be on December 25th.

This is the true origin of the birth of the sun god to a virgin.

After Nimrod's death (c. 2167 BC), Semiramis promoted the belief that he was a god. She claimed that she saw a full-grown evergreen tree spring out of the roots of a dead tree stump, symbolizing the springing forth of new life for Nimrod. On the anniversary of his birth, she said, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts under it.



Before his death, Moses foretold that after his death the Jews would disobey and turn to other “gods” to worship and serve them (Deuteronomy 31:27, 29; 32:16-29). They did, they still do today. Before entering the promise land, they were told:

"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it". Deut. 12:32.

It is plain, No command to keep Christmas. Christ Jesus said Himself:

“‘I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has Himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. And I know that His commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me’” (John 12:49–50).

His commandment is eternal life. See any commands to honor His birth? Some church leaders even opposed the idea of a birth celebration. Origen (c.185-c.254) preached that it would be wrong to honor Christ in the same way Pharaoh and Herod were honored. Birthdays were for pagan gods.

The eventual choice of December 25, made perhaps as early as 273, reflects a convergence of Origen's concern about pagan gods and the church's identification of God's son with the celestial sun. December 25 already hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti (the Roman "birth of the unconquered sun"), and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of Righteousness" whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier. Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the true deity, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a new festival.

Western Christians first celebrated the birth of Jesus on December 25 in 336, after Emperor Constantine had declared Christianity the empire's favored religion. Eastern churches, however, held on to January 6 as the date for Christ's birth and his baptism. Most easterners eventually adopted December 25, celebrating Christ's birth on the earlier date and his baptism on the latter, but the Armenian church celebrates his birth on January 6. Incidentally, the Western church does celebrate Epiphany on January 6, but as the arrival date of the Magi rather than as the date of Christ's baptism.

Another wrinkle was added in the sixteenth century when Pope Gregory devised a new calendar, which was unevenly adopted. The Eastern Orthodox and some Protestants retained the Julian calendar, which meant they celebrated Christmas 13 days later than their Gregorian counterparts. Most—but not all—of the Christian world now agrees on the Gregorian calendar and the December 25 date.
Semiramis and her priests of Satan were deep into the occult, magic and illusion. They were masters of lies and deception. Everywhere there were statues or idols of this mother/child cult. Semiramis was soon hailed as “The Queen of Heaven” (Ashtarte). Her symbol became the moon and her husband/son Nimrod, was then called “Baal” (the “sun god”) Nimrod's symbol became the sun. The city of Babylon was the seat of Satan worship until its fall to the Medes and the Persians in 539 BC.

What's being driven here is that the whole reason Abram was called was because the world was engulfed in heathen deity sun worship, the sun god originally known to the world as Baal. He was called to be a human cultivar with his offspring being promised (eventually) life eternal.

When a seed dies, as in a grain of barley, it produces itself. It doesn't produce a grain of salt, or a lemon. It produces a fractal of itself. It produces what it is...the fruit reflects it's seed. If Christ Jesus is the first of firstfruits, the barely that was waved before the Most High as the Wave Sheaf, then his disciples will be fractals of Him, and will do what only He commanded.

However, this second Eve is as deceived as the first was while in the garden. Leave them to their own worship, the split is fixing to occur.

Theology is a game of delusions. An American Christian will say that the Jihadist is deceived for blowing themselves up in the name of Allah while the Jihadist says it does the killing for Allah because these American women kill their own kids through abortions, and claim that they worship Allah in vain by mixing the Pagan deities with that of Allah. Both have killed each other at one time or another so their ideologies are weak...they don't stand on self supporting legs.

If an ideology has to kill its opponents in order to exist—as is presently the case for fundamental Islam and as was the case for medieval Catholicism—the ideology is inherently false. An ideology should be able to stand on its own strength. An ideology shouldn’t need to be propped up by rifles barrels, broad swords or atomic weapons.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:11 pm 
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I was reading through you guys' sayings, and I missed seeing anyone of you stating the Old Anglo-Saxon phenomenon of Thor as the worshiped Christ-figure of the Viking days of yore. Both Jesus and Thor were synonymous with the Sun deity, so it wasn't difficult for the Romans to infiltrate their barbaric society through the same sun-worship, even if the old Celts still called him "Thor - Jesus," or "Thor YAY zeus," actually... and who is THOR? the god of thunder and lightning, the god of the blitzkrieg, he rides a chariot dragged by "Donder" and "Blitzen," he rides in the whirlwind, full of smoke and fire and fury... Santa Claus.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:16 pm 
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Texas Jon wrote:
I was reading through you guys' sayings, and I missed seeing anyone of you stating the Old Anglo-Saxon phenomenon of Thor as the worshiped Christ-figure of the Viking days of yore. Both Jesus and Thor were synonymous with the Sun deity, so it wasn't difficult for the Romans to infiltrate their barbaric society through the same sun-worship, even if the old Celts still called him "Thor - Jesus," or "Thor YAY zeus," actually... and who is THOR? the god of thunder and lightning, the god of the blitzkrieg, he rides a chariot dragged by "Donder" and "Blitzen," he rides in the whirlwind, full of smoke and fire and fury... Santa Claus.


I remember also my Baptist days when Christians were splitting hairs over the event, calling it, "A Day for Jesus," and "Keep Christ in Christmas," and parents actually teaching their kids that Santa Claus and Jesus' Birthday had nothing to do with each other: "the one was a myth and the other a fact..."

...it's like pealing an onion of deception, one layer of lies and fairy tales at a time, and their ALL THE SAME!

:s_crazy


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:23 pm 
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I've noticed that no amount of evidence or facts actually changes many's minds about the winter solstice celebration. In fact, from my personal experience, if you confront someone with evidence and hard facts, not only does it not change their minds but it actually enforces what it already is that they already believe. People are more interested in their own "traditions"...not facts or history.

I have enough information condemning winter solstice deity worship to be an encyclopedia, but it seems to be only good for me in my area.

I've found for me that by just not doing the holidays speaks volumes, and simply living my beliefs then I don't infringe..so to speak..on their tradition that they deem holy, and that act itself actually is a witness which stands against them whether it's recognized or not . It actually allows for conversation to occur, so the truth can't just simply be spit out, and that seed is planted. As time passes and you stand firm through your persecutions they'll notice how steady you are...stable, and it'll be at some near point in time an anchor for them when the period known as grace comes to a screeching halt.

Telling someone that they "can't" do something or "shouldn't do" something is the same as giving a command, and at this time humans are programmed to rebel against commandments.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:53 am 
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Duckman, It was God who showed me that xmas is an 'unholy' day, and even then it was difficult to let it go completely. It was a process that took a few years. Now, you can't pay me to go back. God doesn't have a problem with us giving good gifts to one another, but what we celebrate as xmas has absolutely nothing to do with his son. Gift giving need not be held to that specific day.

Even with God himself showing me, and I had a hard time with it, it's no wonder that others have difficulty setting down this strong delusion. If people treated it like a Sabbath where they gave the glory to God rather than fulfilling their own lust of eye (sparckle and glitter) and lust of their flesh, material stuff..it wouldn't be so bad. People don't want to let go of that. They don't want the gift God gave them..Peace between God and man, forgivness of Idolatry and rebellion, freedom to walk in his ways and give the ugliness in the world the middle finger. They want the things they can give to themselves...which of course is Idolatry.

The spirit of Saturnalia is alive and well.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:28 pm 
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Real talk... Saturnalia and every other similar December 25, sun worship mythology...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:53 am 
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Judith...point well noted.

I understand that some struggle with "shadows" and typology, and rightfully so, things are not well accepted even by those who claim to "see" spiritually. But one thing I have come to understand is that I am not at liberty to discuss some things, I'm not a teacher...but the spiritual temple is not well understood. The temple is "one" man, who...just like Adam in the garden, is "one" with Eve. Before Adam was placed in the garden, he walked around with Eve "in" him, she was "in" or "inside" Adam before she was taken from him. She was taken from within him through his side, but this happened in the garden, not outside. Adam was formed outside.

Eve could give birth to sons, but before she would have to be "separated" from adam, to become her own person, but not formed from the base elements of the earth as Adam was. The spiritual temple which is at this time, the Son of Man, Eve is within Him with St. Paul saying "you are the BODY of Christ".

The last thing I can mention is that the one covenant that has a sacrifice for sins to redeem a firstborn is the Passover. There is one provision made under this covenant, that if an Israelite touches a dead body, then they must do the second Passover which is 30 days later. They are defiled by touching a dead body so they must do the second Passover. This second Passover occurred at the same time that Noah entered the ark, on the 10th day of the second month, and on the 17th day the heavens were opened and the rains began.

Christ (the Head of His body) was redeemed or became the redeeming sacrifice for those who incorporate the Son of Man, or the spiritual temple. The body (the church) is a dead body, Christianity doesn't keep the sabbaths...have no "life", and is deceived as the first Eve was. Paul states this about the second Eve being deceived also. Christianity keeps Christmas which so did Israel while in bondage to Pharaoh. It's the same winter solstice celebration. There's a great apostasy or a great falling away that will occur according to the book of Daniel occurring 220 days after a great event. This great event is what Christ talked about in the Olivet discourse...and it will occur as the days of Noah, a date I just described. 220 days later is Christmas. This falls exactly into the timeline of when Israel had their exodus from Egypt. The shadow does what the reality does.

The days of Noah fall 30 days after Passover, the time in which a defiled person who touches a dead body can be redeemed, and Christianity is this dead body that needs redeeming. Exodus mentions who those are that are "taken" to which Christ Jesus discussed. Read this twice and think about it.


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