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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:09 am 
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This is going to be kind of...."touchy".....for my friends here but here it goes....

Regardless of my thoughts about Catholicism/Orthodox things....these chants of Psalms in the earthly language of Yeshua, Aramaic, are just beautiful...I do miss such things dearly. I know this isn't the nicest thing for me to say, but I find Hebraic Roots worship to be sorely lacking. The supposed "Davidic dancing/singing" does nothing for me. Does not move me at all and actually is kind of annoying if I'm being honest. Doesn't feel as "sincere" and "holy" as these Psalms chants of old that have been sung in the ancient synagogues and later in the early churches of the Apostles. It is what it is for me on a personal level. I miss the psalms, I miss the burning incense, I miss the bells, the water, the fragrant oils of healing. All of which, despite our major and fair criticisms of current theology and possible blasphemies, ARE actually ALL of Biblical origin. Something Hebrew Roots I feel has cut out that was a vital part of early worship. Does one "need" such things to converse with Elohim? Of course not. But this kind of stuff is more for OUR spirit and healing than it is for Elohim. I feel like such things put our spirits in the "right place" when we start to meditate upon Him and His Son and the path that lays ahead of us all:

I've posted this one before and have more information on it:



Quote:
The Trisagion prayer is an ancient prayer in Christianity. It may be that the prayer was originally an expansion of the angelic cry recorded in Isaiah ch 6, v 3 (sometimes called the Sanctus) or the one at Revelation 4:8

In Greek:

Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.

Agios o Theos, Agios ischyros, Agios athanatos, eleison imas. (Traditional Romanization)

In English:

Holy God, Holy Strong, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.[2]

or more commonly:

Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us.

In Latin:

Sanctus Deus, Sanctus Fortis, Sanctus Immortális, miserére nobis.


More information about this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisagion





Psalm 53

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.


Here is a Latin/Hebrew collaboration chant of Psalm 122 (Cistercian Monks of Stift Heiligenkreuz/ Timna Brauer):



Psalm 122

1 I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the Lord.

2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.

3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:

4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the Lord.

5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.

6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.

8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

9 Because of the house of the Lord our God I will seek thy good.


Lord's Prayer Chant in Latin:



Te Deum Laudamus ("Thee, O God, we praise").

Psalm 33

2 Praise the Lord with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.

3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

Psalm 96

1 O sing unto the Lord a new song: sing unto the Lord, all the earth.

2 Sing unto the Lord, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.

3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.





We praise thee, O God : we acknowledge thee to be the Lord.
All the earth doth worship thee : the Father everlasting.
To thee all Angels cry aloud : the Heavens, and all the Powers therein.
To thee Cherubim and Seraphim : continually do cry,
Holy, Holy, Holy : Lord God of Hosts;
Heaven and earth are full of the Majesty : of thy glory.
The glorious company of the Apostles : praise thee.
The goodly fellowship of the Prophets : praise thee.
The noble army of Martyrs : praise thee.
The holy Church throughout all the world : doth acknowledge thee;
The Father : of an infinite Majesty;
Thine honourable, true : and only Son;
Also the Holy Ghost : the Comforter.
Thou art the King of Glory : O Christ.
Thou art the everlasting Son : of the Father.
When thou tookest upon thee to deliver man : thou didst not abhor the Virgin's womb.
When thou hadst overcome the sharpness of death :
thou didst open the Kingdom of Heaven to all believers.
Thou sittest at the right hand of God : in the glory of the Father.
We believe that thou shalt come : to be our Judge.
We therefore pray thee, help thy servants :
whom thou hast redeemed with thy precious blood.
Make them to be numbered with thy Saints : in glory everlasting.

[added later, mainly from Psalm verses:]
O Lord, save thy people : and bless thine heritage.
Govern them : and lift them up for ever.
Day by day : we magnify thee;
And we worship thy Name : ever world without end.
Vouchsafe, O Lord : to keep us this day without sin.
O Lord, have mercy upon us : have mercy upon us.
O Lord, let thy mercy lighten upon us : as our trust is in thee.
O Lord, in thee have I trusted : let me never be confounded.



I know many of my friends here never even stepped foot in a traditional Catholic or Orthodox church before, let alone even think of doing so....haha. But places like above is where I come from, what I was born into, and it's a real hard thing to let go of it all sometimes. The idols, etc is a no brainer. That's an easy thing. But the psalms, the oils, incense, bells, etc....man, I miss it. We can certainly criticize and call out much against such churches today but these little other things ARE of Biblical origin and I feel like something that most Hebraic Roots places are missing out on. For most folks who grew up in Baptist style churches of the Southern US sipping on grape juice, eating crackers, and had a, no offense, but a general, lackadaisical attitude toward worship....I can see how such things above don't mean much. But like I said....you have to grow up with it and be IN IT to see what I'm trying to "get at" here.

I feel like there is certainly nothing blasphemous about singing psalms in Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin or Greek, burning incense, using fragrant oils for blessing and healing, and keeping things "old world" when such practices can clearly be traced back to the Scriptures themselves. What are your thoughts on such things? Yes, I already know your responses about Catholicism/Orthodoxy but I mean specifically about such style and type of worship, singing, etc....keeping in mind such things were practiced by countless millions of believers in Yeshua for CENTURIES...whether or not you agree with it or not.

:bomb:

:dunno:

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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:17 pm 
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Several years ago I lived in a mountain valley in Colorado. Let's call it ''Hippie-ville". Hippie-villewas populated with hippies from all over the USA along with indigenous people and Mexicans. A good many of these folks were Jews from NY and NJ, many of them the offspring and siblings of famous people whose names you would recognize, or at least their accomplishments.

So hanging out with Jewish folks was a normal part of life. One day I was having a conversation with a gal...one of the school teachers actually, and she was telling me that it was rather hard on the Jews in the area because there was no synagouge, and none among them were rabbis. She told me that when she got really hungry for synagouge, she'd go to the catholic church beause it reminded her a lot of going to synagouge. I was curious but since I'd never been to synagouge for anything more than Bingo games, I couldn't possibly understand. And she couldn't really explain it, either.

So when you say that some of the rituals are biblical, I can relate to that. Many of the traditions are adapted from the temple worship, and from Judaism itself. Like the hand washing and the lighting of the candles for example.

We didn't have the chanting in the churches I grew up in, and the only time I had any exposure to that was on TV really.

I personally think that a certain amount of ritual is important because it does set an atmosphere conducive toward the task at hand. Whatever you grow up with is likely to be that comfort thing for you, and the catholic church does have a way of making their services a special ''holy'' occaision. You go in and there is a sense of awe and reverence that I'm sure was felt while at the temple in Y'shuah's day, too.

So, while at the home of one of the Jewish women mentioned above, her company came in bearing bags full of goodies. Yom Kippur was going to be celebrated in this humble home and one of the women had this beautiful Challa bread which had been baked in pieces. When she finished putting it all together, it was roundish...it was the star of david. So beautiful! All of their eyes lit up and their faces were all aglo with anticipation of what was to come that evening. I wish I could have stayed, but politely, i left since my work for the day was completed.

When Shabbat comes, I like to have those candles and that glass of wine, the two loaves of bread, shabbat songs ready to be played and the worship ready to be expressed. If you have little children and this is your custom in your home, this will be that comforting tradition for them as they grow up and make their own homes..to do the same.

I love the hebrew worship, even if I don't understand it all. Perhaps it's reminiscient of the mass in Latin, I don't know, but the very word of God touches my mind, heart, spirit and it doesn't matter which building I'm in...or not in.

Some prayers only sound right when done in Hebrew, to me. I can't imagine saying the Shema in Latin and having it sould quite right lol!

But more inmportantly to ME, is the spirit of Yah, himself. Sometimes the traditions being carried out don't matter when you become aware of Ruach Ha Kodesh. Because no matter the traditons, his being there is the goal and sometimes that happens with no rituals at all!

I personally have no real deep pleasure in the chants because to ME, the religion is a false sungod religion, a magnification of tammuz and the evil one so the chants just dont hold the same feeling for me. But, I DO understand what you're trying to say.

ps..more often than not, I find the hebrew dancing very distracting. There's a time and a place for it, but at every service...it becomes old hat.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:45 am 
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Judith1 wrote:
Several years ago I lived in a mountain valley in Colorado. Let's call it ''Hippie-ville". Hippie-villewas populated with hippies from all over the USA along with indigenous people and Mexicans. A good many of these folks were Jews from NY and NJ, many of them the offspring and siblings of famous people whose names you would recognize, or at least their accomplishments.

So hanging out with Jewish folks was a normal part of life. One day I was having a conversation with a gal...one of the school teachers actually, and she was telling me that it was rather hard on the Jews in the area because there was no synagouge, and none among them were rabbis. She told me that when she got really hungry for synagouge, she'd go to the catholic church beause it reminded her a lot of going to synagouge. I was curious but since I'd never been to synagouge for anything more than Bingo games, I couldn't possibly understand. And she couldn't really explain it, either.


Yes. I'm glad you mentioned that. I too knew several religious Jews who have stated their experiences within a Catholic and Orthodox churches felt more like synagogue and "more Jewish" than other Christian churches they've been too.

Judith1 wrote:
So when you say that some of the rituals are biblical, I can relate to that. Many of the traditions are adapted from the temple worship, and from Judaism itself. Like the hand washing and the lighting of the candles for example.


I know the usual "go-to" for many about the inside of a Catholic church is that it's "all about pagan sun-god worship." That's the easy way out of things without having to take the time and energy to look a little bit deeper on WHY the RCC does the things it has done for the past several centuries. But the reality is, whether you choose to accept it or not on a personal level, the design and layout of Catholic churches all over the world is actually based off a microcosm model of the Biblical Temple design! The golden tabernacle up towards the front that holds the "blessed sacrament" (the bread, and literal "body of Christ") is the layout and design of the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies that once contained the literal presence of Elohim Himself. These passages are often referred to as the RCC being the literal fulfillment of this prophecy:

Malachi 1

11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.


John 4

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.


Image

The basins of water entering the Temple is represented by the basin's of holy water you find today at the entrance of the church with which you bless/cleanse yourself with prior to entering. Then there's the altar which contains the burning incense and the table on which the bread is blessed. It's actually thoroughly "old school Jewish" and quite Biblical if you can put down the "whore of Babylon" mantra for just a quick second and look at it objectively.

I'm not saying I'm trying to defend everything about the RCC or anything like that. All I'm saying is that being born and raised in the RCC, especially having been an altar server for most of my younger life, it's a hard thing to view such things as being somehow anti-Biblical or blasphemous. General, various major denominations of Christianity to me that I've experienced outside of Catholic walls have all seem to be "silly" and severely lacking in my own personal opinion. Almost like a joke to be honest. I find evangelical Christianity to be rather....."empty" is the only way I can describe the feeling. Like hearing your voice echo in an empty room devoid of pictures, furniture, carpet, etc. And I sometimes get that same kind of feeling and vibe within HR circles to my disappointment.

Judith1 wrote:
We didn't have the chanting in the churches I grew up in, and the only time I had any exposure to that was on TV really.


You only really see that in traditional churches up in the Northeast. Catholic churches down south and most anywhere else in America are fairly indistinguishable from their Protestant/Baptist style churches. Here is the world I grew up in:



Traditional Tridentine Latin Mass in Paris:







I grew up the kind of Catholic that most other American, liberal, "cafeteria Catholics" shudder at the thought of being like....lol. Like I said earlier in another thread, the teachers of my childhood were Catholic nuns, monks, and priests. Funny thing about this new resurgence of the "Hebrew Roots Movement" from it's original beginnings in the 70's (and I'm sure many would argue it's resurgence from it's original beginnings in the original churches!...haha) is that while the entire rest of the Christian world pretty much foams at the mouth when it comes to "Hebrew Rooters" denouncing them as "heretics" and "cults", etc....it's been the Catholic and Orthodox Churches that have been the ONLY ones PRAISING much of the HRM and making attempts at education and reconciliation with such believers! I know I've gotten quite a few bizarre looks from many here and other places when I say that HR beliefs actually mirror more closely [traditional] CATHOLIC and ORTHODOX beliefs than Protestant/Evangelical beliefs! *Shudder*....I know. But it's true. So what that tells ME is that the HRM and Catholic/Orthodox circles are actually the closest to Biblical belief and practice than any other "denominations" out there. I know that certainly doesn't sit well with HRooters but it is a very strange and unexpected correlation that occurs. At least in my years of observation being in the HRM world. The Temple Judaism of old and Catholicism/Orthodox are actually very closely tied to one another....despite all the usual "pagan" criticisms layed out against the RCC. It's a long video, but here is a video about the "Jewish Roots" of the Catholic Eucharist:




Again, not trying to make a defense here but just trying to illustrate the closeness one actually has to Catholicism/Orthodox being apart of the HRM. It's something I noticed right away once I started digging deeper into HR beliefs and views on Scripture. I can't help it. I grew up hardcore Catholic and I can't help but see the closeness and parallels between the two. Honestly, to me, HR is Catholicism stripped of Catholic trappings. OBVIOUSLY, there are also huge and major differences as well. But the core "essence" of both are pretty similar.

No need to bring up statues, idols, popes, etc here....I'm well aware. Just making VERY GENERAL comparisons is all. ;)

Judith1 wrote:
I personally think that a certain amount of ritual is important because it does set an atmosphere conducive toward the task at hand. Whatever you grow up with is likely to be that comfort thing for you, and the catholic church does have a way of making their services a special ''holy'' occaision. You go in and there is a sense of awe and reverence that I'm sure was felt while at the temple in Y'shuah's day, too.


Exactly. That's my point. I'm not saying ritual is the most important thing. Not at all. But it certainly helps "set the mood." Puts your mind and spirit in a place that you just get lost in the Heavenly realms. Makes things seem "more real" and reverent.


Judith1 wrote:
I love the hebrew worship, even if I don't understand it all. Perhaps it's reminiscient of the mass in Latin, I don't know, but the very word of God touches my mind, heart, spirit and it doesn't matter which building I'm in...or not in.

Some prayers only sound right when done in Hebrew, to me. I can't imagine saying the Shema in Latin and having it sould quite right lol!


Agreed there. Eastern Orthodoxy where Aramaic is still spoken is where such things sound more "natural."

Judith1 wrote:
But more inmportantly to ME, is the spirit of Yah, himself. Sometimes the traditions being carried out don't matter when you become aware of Ruach Ha Kodesh. Because no matter the traditons, his being there is the goal and sometimes that happens with no rituals at all!

I personally have no real deep pleasure in the chants because to ME, the religion is a false sungod religion, a magnification of tammuz and the evil one so the chants just dont hold the same feeling for me. But, I DO understand what you're trying to say.


"the religion is a false sungod religion"

My only gripe with that very common charge is that there has been no mass anywhere, ever, that has OPENLY worshiped the sun or other various pagan gods. Every single Catholic mass centers strictly around the Biblical Scriptures. Everything that is read is directly from the Scriptures. Everything centers around Yeshua. Every single mass has readings from the Torah and Prophets then after that a reading from the "New Testament."

So, you have to say that Catholics are unknowingly worshipping pagan gods when in their ears, minds, hearts, and mouths are worshipping YHWH and His Son Yeshua. That's a hard thing to really say one is "being tricked" into worshipping pagan deities without literally and knowingly worshipping them. I think of (Isaiah? Ezekiel?) when Yah shows that there were Jews secretly worshipping other gods in the Temple. They weren't doing it "accidentally." They were literally and knowingly worshipping other gods. They were literally saying the names of these other gods and intentionally turning their backs on YHWH and Scripture. I don't think that's really comparable to what you see within Catholicism. I can see leveling the charge of wrong kind of worship and practice to properly worship YHWH.....but to say it's full blown pagan-sun god worship is a stretch to me these days. Literally everything said comes word for word from the Biblical Scriptures with the absolute intent of worshipping the YHWH of biblical Scriptures and Yeshua.

When I first crossed over to the HR way of things, I made the same type claims because it was real easy to do so and on a surface level it made perfect sense. But these days....I don't know what to think exactly. I'm not saying all of a sudden I'm thinking it's a good idea to start filling up my house with statues of saints, Mary, etc and bowing down in prayer before them (a practice BTW that has never been an official teaching of the RCC...these are traditions that lay Catholics have made up over the centuries and some so idol extreme that even the RCC has had to step in and condemn from time to time)....but I just can't see how one can be "tricked" into worshipping other pagan gods when all you have in front of you is Biblical Scripture and you're inner intent is to worship the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I'm confused about such things. Don't know where I stand anymore on that topic.

ps..more often than not, I find the hebrew dancing very distracting. There's a time and a place for it, but at every service...it becomes old hat. [/quote]

I agree. It is very distracting. And, IMO, I believe such things are more of a post-Temple rabbinical practice then it is a solid Scriptural practice. There may have been such a place/allowance for that kind of thing back in the days of the Temple and David but I don't read anywhere in the NT of Yeshua and the Apostles continuing such practices. There's no real specific description of how it looked or was to be done. It reminds me more of something you see among "Yiddish" type Jews which I find to be irreverent and distasteful. Nothing that is of YHWH. Just my opinion and feelings. I could be wrong....who knows. Just wanted to ramble out some of my thoughts I've had for awhile to others.

And I also wanted to add that there are many that pose as "Catholic" and are not at all. This is a huge problem here in the States with the infiltration of radical leftists and liberals. There are openly gay priests running around, gay masses, "clown masses", etc (none of which I've ever seen in person)....all condemned by the RCC but somehow they manage to continue doing what they do here I guess in the safety of being on the other side of the world (if there are actually "sides" of course... ;) ) separated by vast oceans. There is a huge battle brewing in the American RCC today with all sorts of issues between the "modernists" (for all intent and purposes are officially considered heretics and apostates of the Christian faith by official RCC doctrine and rooted out and excommunicated when they have the motivation and evidence to do so) and the "traditionalists."

Many on the outside like to point to all this disunity and infighting but truthfully, there is just as much disunity and infighting among even HR groups over doctrines and beliefs so I feel like that's not a very valid argument to make. The RCC has seen some seriously wicked and evil members in its time but it still has weathered the centuries. When the RCC "officially" (and the words of any pope does not make anything automatically official...doesn't work like that contrary to what many believe) endorses pagan god worship, homosexuality, etc....then I'll be fully convinced in my own mind she truly is what we suspect her to be...the whore. But until that happens I have a hard time seeing it. I don't see the world as a whole suddenly accepting Catholicism as something to follow. As much as HR has had and still has it's enemies, it will never amount the enemies the RCC has accumulated over the centuries. I don't see the world as a whole falling in love with the Catholic Church any time....ever. Just saying.

Yah Bless, Judith.

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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:55 pm 
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I'll also add here some additional food for thought:

When the mass was changed in Vatican II it was/is called the "Novus Ordo Missae" or "New Order of the Mass." What does this remind you of? Oh yeah... "Novus Ordo Seclorum"..."New Order of the Ages" (New World Order). Yeah....scary stuff. Bizarre stuff. Don't know what to think these days....

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~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:59 pm 
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Ever looked at a counterfeit and couldn't figure it out from the real one? Rome versus Yahuda...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:22 am 
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Location: On a mountain; at your side.
My kinda stufz.... :rose:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:44 pm 
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Texas Jon wrote:
Ever looked at a counterfeit and couldn't figure it out from the real one? Rome versus Yahuda...



Good point, TJ. I was rethinking this tangent in my mind today and recalled what I said earlier:

"My only gripe with that very common charge is that there has been no mass anywhere, ever, that has OPENLY worshiped the sun or other various pagan gods. Every single Catholic mass centers strictly around the Biblical Scriptures...."

...opened my Bible today to a random page and my eyes landed on Isaiah 66:

Thus says the Lord:

1
“Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?

2
For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the Lord.
“But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word. [not just lip service]



3
“He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol.
Just as they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,

4
So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.”




...wow. Did that hit me like a sack of bricks. There's my answer. I get it, Abba. I see it. Silly me. PRAISE YAH!

So even IF the RCC has the "correct" forms of worship, etc...their words, prayers, and sacrifices are completely GARBAGE before YAH considering their worthless fruits the world over anyway.

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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:09 pm 
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temu wrote:
My kinda stufz.... :rose:



Very nice, temu. That was pleasant. Thanks for that.

I always liked the guy (Joseph Israel?: http://josephisrael.com/ ) who sings the intro for Paul Nison's vids. I really like that simple vibe (video intro):




...Minimal instruments, more voice. Though I have a hard time letting go of the Gregorian chant stuff (it's in my blood...generations of French/Norman Catholics I can trace back to the Crusades) I also like SOME "Jamaican/Rastafarian/Reggae" style music like Joseph Israel and Matisyahu.

And, of course, nothing like straight shofar:


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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:13 pm 
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Temu.. that vid was awesome. It brought tears because she found what I'd been searching for in that song, which I just happen to love. Even the broken hearted man part that Cohen touches on.

I'll listen to the other vids later, but for now, I want to relish the residue of that Halliluyah...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:58 pm 
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I have that Norman/French connection also. It's just that the places I lived in the NE had very small churches and simple mass.

I rejected that religion while still a child because as the nuns tried to convince me of the authority of Mary, the Holy Spirit was whispering in my ear...'that's not true, read your bible'. I was only in 3rd grade then, and had not read my bible as I didn't even own one of my own. But when I did read it, I learned that the Holy Spirit lead me correctly...in truth.

I was taught about the bread and wine turning into flesh and blood...another of those whisperings, and yet one more time when the Spirit of Yah, led me to truth. I understood what the church was trying to teach, and their perspective, but that isn't what YAH was intending for us to learn. The meaning is much deeper and has nothing to do with changing of substance like that.

My idea was, and is, if they lied to me about that, what else did they lie to me about? OH! Matters of xcathedra...ya. That's merely a Rabbinic tradition where if a thousand rabbi's say so on a matter, their word is above that of God....It was wrong for the rabbi's and it's wrong for the pope, too.

Then I grew up and read the writings of the early roman fathers, and watched in writing how they bastardized the word of God. Shabbat became the day of the sun. Easter was invented over passover, everthing Jewish was abolished, and the first Christians, who were Jews, murdered because they refused to let go of Jewish ways, and adopt Rome's pagan rituals. They fed those poor believers to the lions, and forced them to kill each other.

Then, thanks to one of my own great grandfathers, they ravaged Europe and killed more people who refused to adopt their practices. They killed more Jews and more Christians. And they lied about Peter being the first 'pope', twisting the words of Yshuah to Peter.

I find no comfort in that church, only that I can see where they adopted some of their traditions from, and am familiar with how people work.

The catholic side of my family..ie mom's cousins, aunts, uncles etc, were alarmed at my leaving the church. They tried to rope me back in with the 'evangelical' wing of the church, but it's still the same ole church with the same ole lies, hell bent as you point out for world domination. Yes, the New World Order...something else that the Spirit showed me as a young one, long before the words fell from GBush1's lips.

I don't like being lied to. That's a deal breaker for me as life is difficult enough without the additional deception and disappointment. They know full well what the true history is, but they continue to spread the lies to make themselves look good, like they have some kind of authority over heaven and hell and who goes where. I rebuke that In the name of all that is Holy and Good, Y'shuah.

The final finish came for me when in my early 20's I wanted to draw in closer to the church. I'd been married by a judge and wanted to Marry in the church to my husband so we were ''taking classes'' which was simply one on one with the priest. He wasn't all that interested in our attending church, as long as we recognized that his parrish was our financial obligation. That's it. That's all he cared about! The mice in his church ate better than we did! How many times did we go for those classes, hungry and were never even offered a glass of water or a cup of tea.

I tried to reject what I heard the spirit whisper to me as a child...because I knew there was a calling of Yah on my life and didn't know how to answer it. Eventually I learned how.

Well, I've had failings too, and taught my children the protestant version of things, and now they won't hear anything else. My bad. Yah tried to draw me his way, but i went the protestant way. ouch.

I've begun to think that all xian religions have elements of truth, and elements of mankind as well. What are ya going to do? Pray, read the word, pray some more, do your best to live with the kind of kindness and love that Y'shuah tries to teach us about, and stand your ground in the face of evil. Sometimes you get knocked on your butt, but you get up and do it again. Sometimes you think you have it grasped until you learn you don't. You only have a little piece of it which leads to something even greater. And then you think, AHAA! I get it! nope...just anther little piece which leads to something greater!

So what's left? On your knees before Yah ...the bug that you are..asking forgiveness and more of Him, and the rejoicing which comes with every peek of HIS greatness.

Our bibles are full of the frailty and failures of man, and the greatness of our King in whom our hope is. Religion can hit the trashcan...we need HIM.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:44 am 
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Judith1 wrote:
I have that Norman/French connection also. It's just that the places I lived in the NE had very small churches and simple mass.

I rejected that religion while still a child because as the nuns tried to convince me of the authority of Mary, the Holy Spirit was whispering in my ear...'that's not true, read your bible'. I was only in 3rd grade then, and had not read my bible as I didn't even own one of my own. But when I did read it, I learned that the Holy Spirit lead me correctly...in truth.


When I was a kid, Catholicism was REAL. It was the absolute truth. My one grandmother would have miraculous visions and take miraculous pictures all the time. If I could get a hold of those pictures I'd post them here so you can see what I mean. She would get these strange urges to take pictures of the sky, clouds, a random picture on a wall, random pictures in church, etc and when they developed, they would have images that were not seen with the eyes. There would be clouds in the shape of rosary beads. Not clouds that "kind of looked like" rosary beads. But literally rosary beads. Like someone took a picture of rosary beads and then edited the photo (something my grandmother obviously didn't and couldn't do back then) to make them look like they were made out of cloud beads. Pictures of "Mary's" face smiling. A picture of a sunset and the developed photo showed a giant robed man, with a rope type belt descending the sky down what looked like stairs. You couldn't see his face, it was just from his chest and shoulders down to his feet. And it wasn't some tiny thing in the photo, it took up the entire sky in the photograph. It was as if someone wearing a robe literally stood in the picture. We're not talking things that "may look like"....we're talking actual, literal unmistakable images of people. Jesus? An angel?

Here are some "miraculous" photos taken by Catholics that are very similar to what my grandmother took [although my grandmothers were just jaw dropping]:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image



And of course the ever famous Catholic phenomena of the "stigmata":

"Padre Pio"

Image

Image

Countless and verifiable, miraculous healings of many ailments including chronic conditions and incurable diseases were attributed to Pio during his lifetime and even after his death. Why would Elohim allow this if it's not from Him? And why just the RCC?

And the ever present and endless strange and unexplainable manifestations:

"Miraculous Staircase of St. Joseph"

Image

Link for story: http://infallible-catholic.blogspot.com ... oseph.html

"Incorruptible saints"

Image

"Eucharistic Miracles" where the bread literally turns into flesh and blood once it hits the tongue. Both flesh and blood have been analyzed in labs to verify it is of an unknown male with AB+ blood type (same as tested on the Shroud of Turin....whether you believe that's real or some medieval creation)...same blood type of the typical Middle Eastern Jew during the first century. People sustaining themselves only off the daily bread for years of their lives....no other food or sustenance:

Image

and on and on and on.....


This was "hands down proof" that the Catholic Church was the true church in my world. Even today, there isn't a single church or denomination across the entire world that compares with the amount, frequency, and supernatural occurrence of these "miracles." These are things that usually strictly occur only within Catholic circles. Why? Truth? Deception?

Strange stuff. My entire childhood was filled with the miraculous and supernatural. All that stopped dead when I left the RCC. I don't know what to think especially when you grow up with all those experiences. I know demons imitate and try to mirror....but why would demons HEAL? Even Yeshua argued that His healings were not from the demonic because they were actually healing people of sickness, blindness, and pain...something demons wouldn't do otherwise they would be "divided against themselves."

Weirdness.....

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:44 am 
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MountainRecluse wrote:
Weirdness.....


I have to take a stand with that and have torah as the litmus test. What else can we do? Allow the possibility that these are from Yahuah even though they are at war with His Word? Or dismiss them as lying signs and wonders?

Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak1. Footnote: 1Or light

Pro 28:9 He who turns away his ear from hearing the Torah, Even his prayer is an abomination1. Footnote: 1See also 15:29, Isa. 59:1-2, John 9:31, 1 John 3:22.

Mat 24:4 And יהושע answering, said to them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray.
Mat 24:5 “For many shall come in My Name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they shall lead many astray.


2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders of falsehood,

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:56 am 
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Hey, brother, the fallen angels/watchers are gods with super-human abilities and can and do perform miracles to fool people all the time. I think that is why Paul warned his brethren that the enemy also can perform miracles before the people who already believe the delusion, even to the point where Yah would give them over to STRONG delusion that they would believe the lie... I also think that is why Yahshua warned them also to "TAKE HEED that no man deceive you ... if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

By the way, I've been to that Cathedral in Santa Fe, NM with the famous stairs. I took pictures of the front entryway, and I have to say, it looks a lot like the female vulva... maybe a possible clue to the world's largest cult being a repacked form of the old sex cults of yore???


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:04 am 
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MountainRecluse wrote:
This is going to be kind of...."touchy".....for my friends here but here it goes....

Regardless of my thoughts about Catholicism/Orthodox things....these chants of Psalms in the earthly language of Yeshua, Aramaic, are just beautiful...I do miss such things dearly. I know this isn't the nicest thing for me to say, but I find Hebraic Roots worship to be sorely lacking.


Hey MR..

I completely can relate to everything that you've said in this thread. I grew up with nuns, was taught by them, they're in my family, I have priests in my family..and many of them are great people. I'm not HRM, I'm not for an "us" vs "them" frame of mind either. Many in the Catholic Church as well as in other denominations have awesome people. There's engineers, policeman, volunteer firefighters, cafeteria workers..all of who belong to these different schisms within the various churches.

How can it be that we have roads that I use (built by these people), businesses, automobiles, boats, rifles and shotguns...all things that I depend on to live...how can we have all these things, especially a volunteer firefighter, and think that they're not going to somehow make it? The fact is that the Christian Church is the body of Christ, with different parts of the body having different functions.

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. For the body does not consist of one member but of many. …But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (1 Cor 12:12–14, 18–30)

The Genesis creation account is written as Hebrew poetry in it's original format. Until a person understands that there's a first and a last Adam then the Genesis narrative will elude them. Adam the man of mud or clay was formed on the dark portion of the first day and the last Adam (Christ Jesus) was born on the light portion of this same day. Everything made physical was made on the dark portions and everything spiritual was made on the light portion. Genesis creation account is about a man and his shadow.

"If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last man Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.…Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven" (1 Cor 15:44-47, 49).

A man doesn't marry his own body, but marries his bride. Right now, the church (with all it's divisions) is the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27). The division will not come until the Passover covenant ends.



MountainRecluse wrote:
My only gripe with that very common charge is that there has been no mass anywhere, ever, that has OPENLY worshiped the sun or other various pagan gods. Every single Catholic mass centers strictly around the Biblical Scriptures. Everything that is read is directly from the Scriptures. Everything centers around Yeshua. Every single mass has readings from the Torah and Prophets then after that a reading from the "New Testament."


This is the whole thing. My brothers worship Jesus' birth on December 25th. They tell me that they're not worshiping anyone other than Jesus...which is true but not the truth. They are honoring, worshiping whatever they want to call it, Jesus...but the truth is this was not His birthday. And they know it, yet they do it. The truth is used to deceive. A lie can be spotted and dismissed once it is detected. The truth is different, but can and will be used as a method to deceive.

Did Eve die when she ate the fruit? No, she surely didn't. And you as Adam standing in the garden watching her eat from it..what do you think as you watch her take a bite and then another bite, then another until it's gone and say, "damn that was good"?

What the serpent told her was true. "You shall surely not die", and she didn't. This caused unbelief from Adam, and in seeing she didn't die, he ate also. The second Eve believes this same lie today, that upon dying you go straight to heaven or to hell...you don't die you simply go somewhere else for eternity. They (adam and eve) never ate from the tree of life, so salvation (life eternal) eluded them. The second Eve has eaten from this same spiritual fruit by not believing that they'll die..that you go to either heaven or hell..that they won't die, just go somewhere else. Completely defies a resurrection.

See how this works?

MountainRecluse wrote:
I know the usual "go-to" for many about the inside of a Catholic church is that it's "all about pagan sun-god worship." That's the easy way out of things without having to take the time and energy to look a little bit deeper on WHY the RCC does the things it has done for the past several centuries. But the reality is, whether you choose to accept it or not on a personal level, the design and layout of Catholic churches all over the world is actually based off a microcosm model of the Biblical Temple design! The golden tabernacle up towards the front that holds the "blessed sacrament" (the bread, and literal "body of Christ") is the layout and design of the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies that once contained the literal presence of Elohim Himself. These passages are often referred to as the RCC being the literal fulfillment of this prophecy:


Until 3 centuries following the crucifixion, some christians were actually still keeping the Passover, some were keeping Easter. Constantine with his authority finally decided to rule out everything Jewish. But before this, in the second century, Polycarp journeyed to Rome to argue Smyrna’s reason for observing the Passover with Anicetus, the lawless bishop of Rome, in what has since become known as the Quartodeciman Controversy.

When Jesus changed the symbols for observing the Passover, He didn’t change the day on when the Passover was to be observed, but stuck with the day and date Moses received from the Lord. The fact is that the host or Eucharist in Catholicism is done every day doesn't change what Christ was doing with His disciples during Passover. They were doing the Passover..

Luke 22:19
19 And when he had taken some bread and given thanks (on the eve of Passover), He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This(unleavended bread) is My body (Passover Lamb) which is given (sacrificed) for you; do this (keep Passover) in remembrance of Me."

The Passover is about liberation, liberating a slave from the one who owns them.

MountainRecluse wrote:
When I was a kid, Catholicism was REAL. It was the absolute truth. My one grandmother would have miraculous visions and take miraculous pictures all the time. If I could get a hold of those pictures I'd post them here so you can see what I mean. She would get these strange urges to take pictures of the sky, clouds, a random picture on a wall, random pictures in church, etc and when they developed, they would have images that were not seen with the eyes. There would be clouds in the shape of rosary beads. Not clouds that "kind of looked like" rosary beads. But literally rosary beads. Like someone took a picture of rosary beads and then edited the photo (something my grandmother obviously didn't and couldn't do back then) to make them look like they were made out of cloud beads. Pictures of "Mary's" face smiling. A picture of a sunset and the developed photo showed a giant robed man, with a rope type belt descending the sky down what looked like stairs. You couldn't see his face, it was just from his chest and shoulders down to his feet. And it wasn't some tiny thing in the photo, it took up the entire sky in the photograph. It was as if someone wearing a robe literally stood in the picture. We're not talking things that "may look like"....we're talking actual, literal unmistakable images of people. Jesus? An angel?

This was "hands down proof" that the Catholic Church was the true church in my world. Even today, there isn't a single church or denomination across the entire world that compares with the amount, frequency, and supernatural occurrence of these "miracles." These are things that usually strictly occur only within Catholic circles. Why? Truth? Deception?


These things are true..with all the miracles, signs and wonders that accompany them too. In the mid 1990's I went to Conyers Georgia to witness the virgin Mary appear to some woman who was having apparitions. They're was this huge field on the hills, where 10's of thousands of people had journeyed and came together at this location.

It was raining, on all of us. The virgin Mary was supposed to appear at 11:00 a.m. on a certain day of each month for a certain number of months. I'm telling you what I saw with my own eyes. At 10:59, the rains stopped and the clouds began to open, and I mean open fast, to where there was a huge hole in the sky with clouds making a near perfect circle with about a 3 mile diameter of storms outside the hills we were standing on. There was no clouds over us, and there was this huge, bright halo around the sun.

Everyone freaked out, me included..to witness such a thing. This Virgin would appear to a woman..I don't remember her name but you can google it, and I remember what this woman was saying. After this virgin appeared to her, she would speak through a microphone to all those gathered and repeat what this virgin said. I can remember her saying that she asked the virgin who she was, but she said that the virgin never answered that question directly, but kept saying that her SON was pissed that humans can get along.

She didn't say she was the Virgin Mary. The fact is that this is the virgin Astarte or Ashtoreth, or Ishtar. The Queen of Heaven. This is what this virgin told this woman, that she is the Queen of Heaven.

She has been appearing to humanity since the ancient of days.

I placed my hand on a statue of her while the apparition was going on, and this thing actually had a pulse...a very strongly pounding heartbeat.

Oh, I was a believer let me tell you, but a quick note about miracles.

Just three days after Israel had witnessed all the miracles done in Egypt, they quit believing YHWH. After Christ Jesus fed the 3 and the 5 thousand, they all abandoned Him. Miracles do not produce faith. The Apostle Paul’s eyes were never healed, but gave him problems for the remainder of his life … God can heal anything that ails our bodies, but most of the time He doesn’t. Sometimes He does. So what is the difference? Why were Paul’s eyes never healed? Because Paul’s apparently weepy eyes kept him humble, and continually reminded him of who he was and what he had been.

Paul prayed 3 times for his eye's to be healed according to him, for removal of a thorn in his flesh—and each time he was told, My grace is sufficient, with grace being the covering of the garment of Christ Jesus’ righteousness, thereby healing the person from spiritual death.

The Apostle Paul says of himself,
To keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Cor 12:7–10)

No faith is truly needed to be healed if it is the will of God to heal the person. Faith is needed when God doesn’t heal; when God doesn’t answer prayers; when the person is suffering and seemingly forsaken by God.

For on most occasions, God heals death by raising the person from death. He isn’t overly concerned about the fleshly body.

Miracles do not produce faith, or the crowds would not have left Jesus when He made the hard-to-be-understood statements about Him being the bread of life (John 6:35).

in the days of old:

Then all the congregation said to stone them with stones. But the glory of [YHWH] appeared at the tent of meeting to all the people of Israel. And [YHWH] said to Moses, "How long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them?(miracles) I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they." (Num 14:1–12 emphasis added)

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works (miracles) in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Things are not nearly as confusing as they're fixing to be when the one campaigning with a certain candidate currently running for president of the U.S. begins working signs and wonders and miracles that we can't imagine.

We must not believe our eyes, but by faith must believe the word of God. The bible is not the word of God, the Logos is, and He said if you don't believe Moses you'll never believe Him.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:17 am 
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I need to make a correction:

When the Ashtoreth appeared as the virgin "Queen of Heaven" to this woman in Conyers Georgia,

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/arti ... irgin-mary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbdJMBPkl0E

she said that her son was pissed that humankind could NOT get along. I wrote above that he was mad that they could get along. This demonstration called "life" inside creation is satans chance to prove to the Most High that his way of democracy (bottom up rule) is a better working model than what the Most High had established before iniquity was found in this anointed cherub.

If this world "gets along" like Rodney King would have liked, then satan would be proved right. Something that the Christ will not allow to happen. He comes to bring division, a sword He says, to disrupt the harmony of this world, the utopia desired by the intellectuals of this world.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:43 pm 
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duckman2017 wrote:
....This is the whole thing. My brothers worship Jesus' birth on December 25th. They tell me that they're not worshiping anyone other than Jesus...which is true but not the truth. They are honoring, worshiping whatever they want to call it, Jesus...but the truth is this was not His birthday. And they know it, yet they do it.....


Still working through everything you said, brother. Thanks for the reply. Your above mention of December 25th actually was going to be the topic of another thread I had in mind. I'll probably crank that out soon before I forget and have no other time to this week. Thanks for the coincidental reminder! No such thing as "coincidences" though, right? :wink:

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