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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:50 pm 
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One of SEVERAL books Martin Luther decided he didn't want you to read. Not so surprisingly the same book attempted to be erased by the post-Temple rabbis....here is why:

The Book of WISDOM (as retained by the Catholic Church canon/Greek Septuagint):

Wisdom 2

[12] Let us therefore lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraideth us with transgressions of the law, and divulgeth against us the sins of our way of life.
[13] He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God.
[14] He is become a censurer of our thoughts.
[15] He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men' s, and his ways are very different.
[16] We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and he preferreth the latter end of the just, and glorieth that he hath God for his father.
[17] Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be.
[18] For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies.
[19] Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness and try his patience.
[20] Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words.
[21] These things they thought, and were deceived: for their own malice blinded them.
[22] And they knew not the secrets of God, nor hoped for the wages of justice, nor esteemed the honour of holy souls.
[23] For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him.
[24] But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world:
[25] And they follow him that are of his side.



Yeah. I'd say that's one shocking prophesy modern churchianity, modern Judaism, and the world in general would like to fade away...

:whistle:


I have an obvious leaning towards the Greek Septuagint. "Greek"....yikes! I know what you're thinking. But I've gotten to the point where I truly believe the Masoretic (KJV, etc) is garbage and a mass attempt to disqualify/disprove Messiah that was undertaken not very long after the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

I know that's not a very popular view around my friends here but I believe the Greek Septuagint to be the only faithful copy of the ORIGINAL ORIGINAL Hebrew into the Greek. The Hebrew that was there before the antichrists started messing with it. The Masoretic is untrustworthy and clearly at odds with what we read in the NT Scriptures when you compare side to side. Those who like to discredit Messiah the most always are using a Protestant version of the Tanakh which derives from the Masoretic. It's a perfect match when compared to the Septuagint. Just saying....

:s_cool

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:36 pm 
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Location: On a mountain; at your side.
Heretic.

Judaizer.

Legalist.

Let's drink!

:drinks:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm 
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okie dokie! how about you tell us how you REALLY feel lol!

What's your outlook on the dead sea scrolls?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:52 am 
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Judith1 wrote:
okie dokie! how about you tell us how you REALLY feel lol!

What's your outlook on the dead sea scrolls?



1. Between all three, the Masoretic, the Septuagint, and the Dead Sea Scrolls there is around a 95% congruency. This in itself is an amazing proof of Yah's promise to preserve His Word.

2. Here is the kicker though, although most differences tend to be spelling and minor word differences here and there (or order of certain passages within a book) these differences between the Masoretic and the Septuagint almost ALWAYS center around MESSIANIC PROPHESY PASSAGES. The Masoretic is very vague whereas the Septuagint is bluntly precise in it's reference to the Messiah.

One of the major examples (out of many others) used is Isaiah 53. The Masoretic downplays Messiah and instead points to the nation of Israel. In the Septuagint, the prophesy is clearly about Yeshua Messiah. Isaiah 53 is a common "go-to" for Jews trying to disprove Yeshua but they never use the Septuagint, always the Masoretic.

Another quick example would be the Masoretic Hebrew for "maiden" as opposed to the Septuagint's Greek (translated from the ancient Hebrew) which is specifically "virgin." The KJV translators had to ignore the Masoretic Hebrew for "maiden" and they put in what was in the Catholic preserved Septuagint "virgin" being a very specific prophesy about Messiah. Many Jews use this to their advantage that the KJV translators intentionally mistranslated the Masoretic....which is true! So they say "aha! Christians altered the Hebrew! Accuse! Accuse! Yeshua is not Messiah!" but what they don't realize is the Masoretic is NOT THE ORIGINAL HEBREW!

3. When both the Masoretic and Septuagint are compared to the Dead Sea Scrolls it is the GREEK SEPTUAGINT that is closer in proper wording and the original Hebrew than the Masoretic! The Greek translation from the original Hebrew is MORE ACCURATE than the Hebrew Masoretic! This right here is clear evidence that the Hebrew Masoretic was purposefully and intentionally ALTERED around the Messianic prophesies to "write out" Yeshua. The Masoretic is corrupt and not the original Hebrew referenced by Yeshua, His Apostles, and the early church.

Further reading (these are just some quick sites I found. There is tons of info out there on this topic):

Quote:
"Septuagint - Dramatic Evidence for the Credibility of Messianic Prophecy

The Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls establish a very dramatic piece of evidence for Christianity – that the Old Testament prophecies of the coming Messiah unquestionably predated the time that Jesus Christ walked the earth. All theories of 1st Century AD conspiracies and prophecy manipulation go out the door when we realize that prophetic scripture like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 were fixed in written form at least 100 years before Christ, and probably many more."


SOURCE: http://www.septuagint.net/septuagint.htm


Quote:
"The Superiority of the Septuagint: This is an important issue because the Septuagint (Greek Translation of the OT made sometime in 300's BC in Alexandria) differs on some points form the Hebrew text (the Masoretic Text or MT). The earliest copies we have of the MT only Date from about 900 or 1000 AD, but the LXX goes back much further."

SOURCE: http://www.doxa.ws/Messiah/Lxx_mt.html

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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:15 am 
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temu wrote:
Heretic.

Judaizer.

Legalist.

Let's drink!

:drinks:



The names upon my head never cease....

:drinks:

.....but it is Yeshua Who is in my heart.

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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:18 am 
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Quote:
"John Allegro in The Dead Sea Scrolls documents that when the LXX and Mt contradict, the LXX most often agrees with the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS)."

SOURCE: http://www.doxa.ws/Messiah/Lxx_mt.html

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:36 am 
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That's quite interesting MR because most of the reading I've done reflects the inaccuracy of the Greek over the Hebrew in support of the Masoretic. I don't know enough about either language to even comment on it, but it does make for a great study, for sure.

I have however witnessed what you said abt. Isa. 53 and it's relevance to Israel v Messiah. I saw the weak spot in that discourse, however. I had not thought of the masoretic as being anti-messiah by design though so you do bring up some interesting points to further investigate.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:24 pm 
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Judith1 wrote:
That's quite interesting MR because most of the reading I've done reflects the inaccuracy of the Greek over the Hebrew in support of the Masoretic. I don't know enough about either language to even comment on it, but it does make for a great study, for sure.

I have however witnessed what you said abt. Isa. 53 and it's relevance to Israel v Messiah. I saw the weak spot in that discourse, however. I had not thought of the masoretic as being anti-messiah by design though so you do bring up some interesting points to further investigate.

Thanks!



Yep. That's what I've come to see myself. I'm no super theologian and definitely not fluent in Hebrew or Greek but I know and have read enough to see the differences between the two. Not trying to knock anyone else's preferences and choices but the Catholic canon and Septuagint tends to be my "go-to" these days. I have trouble trusting anything based off the Masoretic though I obviously still use it when I need to.

After being so used to the KJV all these years when I went back to my old school Catholic days Douay-Rheims the difference between the two were significant. I was surprised. Passages out of the DR just blowing my mind left and right and you just don't get that same effect when going through the KJV Tanakh. Yeshua just jumps right out of the pages at you whereas the KJV you have to really "pay attention" to what you're reading and sometimes read Messiah into a passage which always felt like something you shouldn't have to be doing.

Historically speaking, many of the Jews we read about in the NT who studied the Scriptures and seen Messiah throughout were thumbing through the GREEK SEPTUAGINT. Yes, there were obviously Hebrew and Aramaic originals but the Greek Septuagint was based right off of those originals and was in widespread use with Jews that were scattered among the ancient world.

The Masoretic is fairly accurate but the "erasing" of Yeshua from out of every single NT quote of the Tanakh and Messianic prophesies (and missing books) is obvious to me....and many others as well. Say what you will about the RCC, but they certainly took the time and effort to protect and transmit the original Scriptures in my view. Luther came along and just started hacking away whatever he seen fit then to top it off is later followers trusted a newer Hebraic translation to distance themselves from the RCC but jumped right into the laps of Jewish antichrists. Madness!

I believe the modern rabbinical Judaism of today is absolutely not the Judaism of Yeshua's time and the subtle differences between the Masoretic and Septuagint reflect that change in thought.

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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:56 am 
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MountainRecluse wrote:

Another quick example would be the Masoretic Hebrew for "maiden" as opposed to the Septuagint's Greek (translated from the ancient Hebrew) which is specifically "virgin." The KJV translators had to ignore the Masoretic Hebrew for "maiden" and they put in what was in the Catholic preserved Septuagint "virgin" being a very specific prophesy about Messiah. Many Jews use this to their advantage that the KJV translators intentionally mistranslated the Masoretic....which is true! So they say "aha! Christians altered the Hebrew! Accuse! Accuse! Yeshua is not Messiah!" but what they don't realize is the Masoretic is NOT THE ORIGINAL HEBREW!



Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the DSS have almah in Isaiah 7? Almah is usually translated maiden, which is what the Masoretic has (from what I understand, almah could be a virgin, but not exclusively like the Hebrew betulah). The Septuagint has virgin. That means the DSS and Masoretic (in this case) agree, the Septuagint differs.

I understand that doesn't necessarily prove the DSS and Masoretic are closer to the original, though.

Interesting discussion. Thanks for the food for thought….

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:59 am 
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MountainRecluse wrote:



Thanks for the link. Some sabbath reading.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:05 pm 
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Toshav wrote:
MountainRecluse wrote:

Another quick example would be the Masoretic Hebrew for "maiden" as opposed to the Septuagint's Greek (translated from the ancient Hebrew) which is specifically "virgin." The KJV translators had to ignore the Masoretic Hebrew for "maiden" and they put in what was in the Catholic preserved Septuagint "virgin" being a very specific prophesy about Messiah. Many Jews use this to their advantage that the KJV translators intentionally mistranslated the Masoretic....which is true! So they say "aha! Christians altered the Hebrew! Accuse! Accuse! Yeshua is not Messiah!" but what they don't realize is the Masoretic is NOT THE ORIGINAL HEBREW!



Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the DSS have almah in Isaiah 7? Almah is usually translated maiden, which is what the Masoretic has (from what I understand, almah could be a virgin, but not exclusively like the Hebrew betulah). The Septuagint has virgin. That means the DSS and Masoretic (in this case) agree, the Septuagint differs.

I understand that doesn't necessarily prove the DSS and Masoretic are closer to the original, though.

Interesting discussion. Thanks for the food for thought….


Not sure. I'll have to double check this one myself. Shabbat Shalom ;)

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~ Matthew 7:22-23


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