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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:20 pm 
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Inmates have to jump through hoops...and wait...and wait...for a 'rabbis' approval. We desire to change the state / country law about this mess, here is our first step...

Give me some input/changes...final draft has a couple more days to submit.

Dear Mr. XYZ,

Favor please! We’ve not officially met, but you did speak a “Shalom Aleichem” to my brother and I as we carried in a Mikveh receptacle last Pesach! Shalom Aleichem to you! As sponsor for the Messianic (AOY) group at VSP, I have been asked to assist with some of their valid requests that oddly seem out of their immediate reach. I am sure by now that you are very familiar with the “Hebrew Roots / Messianic” explosion that has blossomed worldwide within the last 20 years. We are not to be confused with any ‘church’ denomination that has created pogroms without number, fueled anti-Semitism, nor those who have systematically and denominationally rejected the fullness of the Word. This abhorrent behavior has created a new entity so far removed from the true roots of our faith; the culmination of which is a skewed system that is currently reflected in the present prison system and how it responds to inmates who simply want to obey what is written in Scripture. We can clearly see the dictates of one Torah for the natural born and the foreign born (no man-made ‘Noachide law’ separation); the great proclamation of Yeshayahu in the 56th chapter; His desire and our desire to take hold of His Covenant—to ultimately be brought to His qodesh mountain. We cannot bind ourselves to Him apart from the ways that please Him; abominable foods do not please Him. This is no trifle matter. This is why I am asking for your immediate assistance.

The brothers here (statewide also) have related how difficult it is just to have a Chrono for Scripturally clean food as defined by Torah. Personally, I cannot understand any reason why there should be any difficulty whatsoever when we put all the aforementioned man-made obstacles to the side and just look at it Scripturally. There is nothing in Torah concerning adopting neither the tenets of Judaism; nor a period of review or scrutiny to deem someone/anyone ‘worthy’ of taking hold of the terms of His Covenant. This decision requires no go-between; a decision solely between man and his Creator. Such, it seems, is the present system…a system borne not from above, but from the inclinations and traditions of men. You know and I know it should not be this way! It is simply not an ‘approve’ or ‘disapprove’ decision made by any man. We are not converts to Judaism, nor do we acknowledge any rabbinic authority in these matters. Our authority is Scripture. Regardless how any man feels about this, that is simply the bottom line.

Recently as well, I was asked to review and reply to a fellow at VSP who simply asked for a Chrono for Shabbat and the other prescribed Moedim. I asked the Chaplain to ‘please just write him a Chrono’…he seemed to think, even though he himself carries a TaNaK, that it overstepped his bounds. Again, I implore you, it should not be this way! We cannot stand between the hearts of men who desire and have chosen whom they will serve; and serve in accordance to the fullness of His Instructions. These are nothing more than man-made obstacles. It is time to get down to where the rubber meets the road and end all this nonsense. My prayer is that it begins now.

So, my plea, since we are presently in this current and flawed system, and it apparently falls within your job parameters, I am asking that you please fast-track these requests without all the jumping through hoops that should not be there in the first place. Please, we need immediate resolution of these matters so we can bind this chaos and have the fullness of His shalom…and walk in the fullness of His Eternal Ways.

‘One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.’ ”

Shalom,

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:50 am 
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What is the criteria for Muslims to have a Koran, and eat halal while in prision?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:25 am 
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Judith wrote:
What is the criteria for Muslims to have a Koran, and eat halal while in prision?


That's just it. Islam is fully established. We are 'newcomers'...returning to the entirety of His Word has been lost for millennia, so we are trying to simply establish a 'new' thing...we do not fall under the Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim (the 4 biggies they acknowledge) headings. So when it comes to Sabbath, feasts, tzit-tzits, shofar use, etc., they shove that over to the 'rabbi'. He has to 'approve'...but what a mess...he is the authority...he checks inmates files to try to glean any Jewish blood by names, relatives names, etc! They also have to be interviewed and fill out forms. Sheesh...we are trying to establish precedence for legal changes and become recognized.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:18 pm 
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Are there any Messianic Synagogues in your area that you might consult with? How about Seventh Day Adventists? They do the saturday sabbath and from my understanding, they don't eat meat, at all. Maybe they'd have some input in addition to the rabbi mentioned in your letter?

I know that the US government recognized the temple of Set as a valid religion despite it being a satanist church. I still have the video made by
geraldo rivera years ago whereby he had the man who was at the head of that church, and who was a high ranking military man.

Granted, these things are in the outside world, but since the prisions ARE allowing religious expression of all sorts, what allows them to distinguish between which religion is valid, from another?

I'm sure if a JW was imprisoned, and was mortally injured requiring a blood transfusion, his request for refusal of it at the prison hospital would be honored.

The ACLJ might have some information for you too (Jay Seculow ..sp?) as might other prision ministries.

I know this isn't exactly what you asked for, and some of what I've written might be utterly useless to you, but I'm hoping to spark an idea that might have escaped you.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:19 pm 
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I'm thinking that if you do some more homework, you can present your findings to the rabbi, or whomever you need to address, to justify your position, thereby coming from a position of strength as opposed to frustration.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:24 pm 
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Judith wrote:
I'm thinking that if you do some more homework, you can present your findings to the rabbi, or whomever you need to address, to justify your position, thereby coming from a position of strength as opposed to frustration.


Hmmmm...thanks Judith!

Sadly, the 'rabbi' will refer to the D.O.M. ...Departmental Operations Manual for his back-up. It's what I mean about how the 'church' has skewed/blinded the system. One of the inmates is filing on this...if the rabbi agrees with me, we win. If he disagrees and continues, we have further grounds for proceeding, using his denial as more evidence.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:52 pm 
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Your inmate might find some support through the ACLJ as a matter of constitutional rights and cruel and unusual punishment...which is illegal.

It sounds like you have a very interesting case! One that could do a LOT of people a lot of good over the long run.

I agree with you 100% with regard to the prejudice shown regarding religion.

But the 'system' is going to have to be beat on it's own terms which unfortunately involves legal precedent...AND of course the hand of Almighty YHVH.

I referred to the ACLJ because they specialize in constitutional law and are in a position to lend some good guidance. Are there other prison ministries ..like Chuck Colson's...who have also fought these battles, who might have some advice to offer? Chuck's is the only one I personally am familiar with but because you are more involved with this than I am, perhaps you have resources that you might not even realize.

Somebody had to fight for Islamic rights somewhere along the line, and those cases might be your best value. What arguments were utilized? Islam was only 'created' in the 7th century, but Messianic Judaism began with Y'shuah and his apostles. It's the very ''root'' of xianity.

Just like the USA changed from what the founding fathers intended 200 years after the signing of the constitution, xianity changed direction in about that same time period of 200 years.

In essence, Messianic Judaism IS a denom. of Judaism AND Christianity so you should have at least some safe ground to walk on there. Both are accepted legally, therefore, a blend of both should also be accepted.

Organized religion is of no help in all of this. It's going to have to take a legal turn.

I can't think of anybody to have at one's back, than you, in all of this. You cite the right scriptures even if the presentation could use more elaboration :blush: Especially for those who lack understanding. You will have to be a teacher.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:45 am 
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Judith wrote:
In essence, Messianic Judaism IS a denom. of Judaism AND Christianity


That's another thing we want to separate from...involving a 'Judaism' label. The same with the term 'kosher'...both imply rabbinicism.

We've pretty much agreed to keep the standard label as 'Messianic', as well as saying clean food according to Scripture; not 'kosher'. 'Kosher' would say no cheese on that burger!

We want a clean break!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:12 am 
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temu wrote:
Judith wrote:
What is the criteria for Muslims to have a Koran, and eat halal while in prision?


That's just it. Islam is fully established. We are 'newcomers'...returning to the entirety of His Word has been lost for millennia, so we are trying to simply establish a 'new' thing...we do not fall under the Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim (the 4 biggies they acknowledge) headings. So when it comes to Sabbath, feasts, tzit-tzits, shofar use, etc., they shove that over to the 'rabbi'. He has to 'approve'...but what a mess...he is the authority...he checks inmates files to try to glean any Jewish blood by names, relatives names, etc! They also have to be interviewed and fill out forms. Sheesh...we are trying to establish precedence for legal changes and become recognized.


My heart and prayers go out for you, Terry. May Yah remove the obstacles and the fetters to fall off. I know how you feel: when my daughter was born, the doctors and nurses were beside themselves to try to figure "us" out when it came to delivery/shots/meds, etc. And several years in education, I feel the full brunt of obstacles coming from Austin, Tx. on down.

Do the authorities recognize the SDA or JWs or Mormons? If so, then why is there no recognition for another "newcomer" group of believers? Why is there any red tape in the first place? Seems to me, a group of fellas that want to gather a few times a year to study scripture and eat food is a pretty cool and legitimate request...

Prayers, brother. :rose:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:22 am 
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http://discoverarchive.vanderbilt.edu/b ... sequence=1


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:33 am 
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Texas Jon wrote:
http://discoverarchive.vanderbilt.edu/bitstream/handle/1803/3705/Cheeseburger.pdf?sequence=1


Thanks bra...prayers appreciated. Yeah...a bit about the 'kosher' thing in prison. It's so twisted...'if' the rabbi approves their desire to eat clean, then they HAVE to buy (at canteen) rabbinic 'approved' items...even though there are a host of items that ARE clean, but not rabbinic approved...like sardines...they MAY have been processed at the same place as crab...and, as such, if a brother DOES buy some sardines, they get a 128...a write-up...for crossing the rabbinic line. Yep, they check the canteen records!

:dirol:

See why we need a total breakaway?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:43 am 
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Texas Jon wrote:
Do the authorities recognize the SDA or JWs or Mormons?


Yes, but none of those follow torah. They fall under the 'protestant' heading.

They have never seen anything like us...imagine that. No wonder the entire world falls under the sway of the wicked one...a walk modeled after Messiah is a foreign concept. No wonder they ALL are in apostasy; all part of the great falling away.

Lol...the protestant pastor there (a lady) wouldn't even let us use the mikveh tank...had to buy one to bring in. She also will not allow Messianic material in the chapel library...calls it poison...and her lemmings would just destroy the material anyway.

She got in trouble over the mikvah...I think she is upset with me, though it came to light because I was issued a special permit to bring one in...the superiors questioned why it was needed since the state had one there!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:41 pm 
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This is a side issue, but may be a complicating factor in your struggle: I remember reading about how some inmates have been requesting kosher food in prison because it's considered fresher, better quality, etc. and is barter-able.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/us/you-dont-have-to-be-jewish-to-love-a-kosher-prison-meal.html

But, as the article mentions, the cost for kosher food can be up to four times the cost of conventional fare.


I'm just wondering if prison administrators may be more sympathetic to Messianic inmates requests if they knew it doesn't have to be certified kosher, per se. Is it at all possible to simply say they cannot eat certain foods based on religious grounds? I totally get the aversion to even calling it kosher, because then they want to lump you in with Judaism. Call it unclean and inedible.


All that said, I know receiving kosher food in prison is probably the safest way to know you are eating clean, because it's much more than just not eating pork. As we know, even some bread products can be unclean (L-Cystine). "Kosher" is also probably easier for the ones preparing meals. Ordering Kosher takes the guess work out of it.


Is ordering and personal meal prep something the inmates can be directly involved with?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:58 pm 
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Something has been bouncing around my head today and that is the beneficial effects of ''walking in obedience''...maintaining a 'Kosher' lifestyle. Because these people are willing to consider such, the discipline/training of it prepares (some) of them for the outside world where they will be required to be obedient to the terms of their parole/probation. There is a direct correlation, a mindset that (hopefully) trains the mind/heart/spirit to walk in a non-rebellious manner.

In otherwords, these people are more likely to meet the terms of their release as a matter of lifestyle, which is something that they are being trained for in being willing to discipline themselves. For them, it's not just lip service, they mean it. Being a good citizen of Yah's kingdom ALSO means being a good citizen of earth, too.

Other religions really make no/few demands on personal conduct..'it's all under the blood' so really, it's a quick slide into doing what ever, god will forgive it. Zero accountability to the church (most are very tolerant), to congregation, to rabbi/pastor. As long as they don't get caught.

Whereas, the demands of HR are such that personal conduct/attitude is everything.

One of the 'fruits' (if you will) of eating kosher is the realization that even a teeny amount of sin...counts. There MUST be a heart/mind/spirit change for a person to be able to adhere to Yah's demands.

A prison environment poses some challenges that so far aren't encountered in the outside world, therefore, their walk is even more difficult.

It's not like they can just pick up the phone book so see where the nearest Kosher grocery store is. They are at the mercy of those who are currently 'ruling' over them for their sustenance. Good training on it's own...Yah is a kinder 'ruler' because he does enable one to follow his ways whereas prison authorities aren't as likely to be as accommodating. Yet, the desire to do right, is there despite those difficulties.

I thought I'd toss that in there...nutshell version...to be considered in your appeal. It's beneficial to follow Torah..beneficial to the prison, to other inmates, to guards, and to the outside world. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:06 am 
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Toshav wrote:
This is a side issue, but may be a complicating factor in your struggle: I remember reading about how some inmates have been requesting kosher food in prison because it's considered fresher, better quality, etc. and is barter-able.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/us/you-dont-have-to-be-jewish-to-love-a-kosher-prison-meal.html

But, as the article mentions, the cost for kosher food can be up to four times the cost of conventional fare.


I'm just wondering if prison administrators may be more sympathetic to Messianic inmates requests if they knew it doesn't have to be certified kosher, per se. Is it at all possible to simply say they cannot eat certain foods based on religious grounds? I totally get the aversion to even calling it kosher, because then they want to lump you in with Judaism. Call it unclean and inedible.


All that said, I know receiving kosher food in prison is probably the safest way to know you are eating clean, because it's much more than just not eating pork. As we know, even some bread products can be unclean (L-Cystine). "Kosher" is also probably easier for the ones preparing meals. Ordering Kosher takes the guess work out of it.


Is ordering and personal meal prep something the inmates can be directly involved with?


To accomodate the Jewish people, they actually HAVE a separate preparation area for those deemed 'worthy' by the rabbi.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:10 am 
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Judith wrote:
Something has been bouncing around my head today and that is the beneficial effects of ''walking in obedience''...maintaining a 'Kosher' lifestyle. Because these people are willing to consider such, the discipline/training of it prepares (some) of them for the outside world where they will be required to be obedient to the terms of their parole/probation. There is a direct correlation, a mindset that (hopefully) trains the mind/heart/spirit to walk in a non-rebellious manner.

In otherwords, these people are more likely to meet the terms of their release as a matter of lifestyle, which is something that they are being trained for in being willing to discipline themselves. For them, it's not just lip service, they mean it. Being a good citizen of Yah's kingdom ALSO means being a good citizen of earth, too.

Other religions really make no/few demands on personal conduct..'it's all under the blood' so really, it's a quick slide into doing what ever, god will forgive it. Zero accountability to the church (most are very tolerant), to congregation, to rabbi/pastor. As long as they don't get caught.

Whereas, the demands of HR are such that personal conduct/attitude is everything.

One of the 'fruits' (if you will) of eating kosher is the realization that even a teeny amount of sin...counts. There MUST be a heart/mind/spirit change for a person to be able to adhere to Yah's demands.

A prison environment poses some challenges that so far aren't encountered in the outside world, therefore, their walk is even more difficult.

It's not like they can just pick up the phone book so see where the nearest Kosher grocery store is. They are at the mercy of those who are currently 'ruling' over them for their sustenance. Good training on it's own...Yah is a kinder 'ruler' because he does enable one to follow his ways whereas prison authorities aren't as likely to be as accommodating. Yet, the desire to do right, is there despite those difficulties.

I thought I'd toss that in there...nutshell version...to be considered in your appeal. It's beneficial to follow Torah..beneficial to the prison, to other inmates, to guards, and to the outside world. :)


I'd actually like to see a breakdown of recidivism percentages based on religion. Ha...possibly another benefit WHEN we get recognised as separate from the others!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:43 am 
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temu wrote:
Texas Jon wrote:
Do the authorities recognize the SDA or JWs or Mormons?


Yes, but none of those follow torah. They fall under the 'protestant' heading.

They have never seen anything like us...imagine that. No wonder the entire world falls under the sway of the wicked one...a walk modeled after Messiah is a foreign concept. No wonder they ALL are in apostasy; all part of the great falling away.

Lol...the protestant pastor there (a lady) wouldn't even let us use the mikveh tank...had to buy one to bring in. She also will not allow Messianic material in the chapel library...calls it poison...and her lemmings would just destroy the material anyway.

She got in trouble over the mikvah...I think she is upset with me, though it came to light because I was issued a special permit to bring one in...the superiors questioned why it was needed since the state had one there!


All you need is LOVE...

Reading about the history of those other groups, however, they are definitely not Protestants... unless your concept of Protestant is protesting the Protestants... :spiteful:

And the Mormons... "Protestants?" :shok:

You should have been a fly on the wall when I was taking World History in college--me and the prof going round and round about evolution vs creation... she proudly proclaimed that she was an Independant Baptist and believed that God had created everything over billions of years of change, she and her modern/secularhumanist/Marxist-feminist ideas, along with her monkey-god-ancestor that she evolved from... :s_crazy

(I got an A in her class though, both semesters... ;) )


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:49 am 
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Terry, I am convinced with all my heart and spirit that this is the Way...

With all this persecution and spiteful treatment against a person or group that believes in MESSIAH, his blood, his cross, his WAY, I concur that they are all in apostasy. Oh my Yah.

Beware of false prophets. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Beware of dogs. Beware of evil workers. Beware the concision.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:26 pm 
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Quote:
Terry, I am convinced with all my heart and spirit that this is the Way...

With all this persecution and spiteful treatment against a person or group that believes in MESSIAH, his blood, his cross, his WAY, I concur that they are all in apostasy. Oh my Yah.


Amen to that brother!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:29 am 
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Texas Jon wrote:
Terry, I am convinced with all my heart and spirit that this is the Way...

With all this persecution and spiteful treatment against a person or group that believes in MESSIAH, his blood, his cross, his WAY, I concur that they are all in apostasy. Oh my Yah.

Beware of false prophets. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Beware of dogs. Beware of evil workers. Beware the concision.


The plot thickens. Yesterday, after having charge of the chapel in my overseers absence (vacationing for a month in Columbia), I was informed that my brown-card will be taken away...apparently my applications to various other prisons came under scrutiny; phone calls were made. Now it seems, any ex felon cannot have a brown card---though I have been coming and going with one for a almost a year now. Lol...when it expires next month, I can no longer be trusted with the status.

No biggie...I felt a stirring in my Spirit for a couple months over this...now I know why. Bottom line is the fellow who is my overseer says he will keep me on guest status...unless they decide to squash that also. The difference is that I will need escorted in and out of the prison. My overseer asked if my wife would be willing to get a brown card...then she could escort me in!

Anyways, His will be done.

As for the 'rabbi', he denied more brothers clean food...they have not had proper, brit millah. Lol. Can't wait to have a discussion with him...if he responds to my updated letter to him...BTW...thank you all for the input. It's so wonderful to have a family here to run these issues by and have the support from you all.

Yah bless you all in abundance.

Shabbat shalom!

:drinks:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:09 pm 
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That's stupid. Man-made dogma anywhere you turn. Be in the world, not of it; but while your here in it, you have to deal with worldly bullshit.

Keep sticking your spear in there, man. There's gotta be other chinks in that armor over there. Yah be with you as you carry his burden and Word...

Shabbat Shalom! :drinks:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:36 pm 
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damn :sorry:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:44 pm 
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Texas Jon wrote:
Keep sticking your spear in there, man.


That's the plan, man! Got 'er all shiny and sharp!

Kinda got me stirred up now.

Y'all help me prayer for this enemy, will ya'?

:whistle:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:01 pm 
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O, Yahshua. Move your Spirit through that place and break loose the shackles.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:58 pm 
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Well, this ought to make you grin.



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:49 pm 
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I've been praying about this situation since you posted it, and will continue to do so.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:09 pm 
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(abt the video)

THAT went well! I wonder how she likes him now?! lol


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:58 am 
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I just learned that the 'rabbi' will not be responding to my letter to him because I didn't address him as 'rabbi'. Lol.

The real factor is he cannot address our issues within torah.

To make any case against our request, he would have to go to the writings of men...their elitest fences.

:bad:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:09 am 
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Did you point out Matthew 23:8 to him? What a maroon... you should call him pope next time.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:27 am 
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Texas Jon wrote:
Did you point out Matthew 23:8 to him? What a maroon... you should call him pope next time.


It will be in the letter I am writing now, for sure.

Naturally, he will buck and kick some more...which is good, as his refusals enhance our case.

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Asher hayah v'hoveh v'yavo!


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