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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 5:03 am 
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I hear this a lot. From Muslims as well. The argument goes there is no need for blood sacrifice and that even God disproves of it:

Isaiah 1

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.


So the "need" for Jesus' blood sacrifice for sins was not even a necessary act. Ipso facto, the NT is full of crap. Jesus was merely one of many false messiah's and was crucified (or if you're Muslim, Jesus was Messiah but spared the crucifixion.) Jesus' later followers concocted the whole story based off of previous pagan mythologies, etc...blah blah

But then how the heck, as a Jew who believes such, deal with this?:

Leviticus 17

10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.

14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.



Conversely, why would one be compelled to believe in Jesus when he states "drink my blood." Obviously, it was figuratively but why make such a statement in the first place, figurative or not? Obviously many turned away from him at that time. You can make the lamb argument but you don't drink the blood of the lamb. And why even make a statement that even remotely goes against the Torah and would intentionally confuse and disturb many?:

"...I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."

Just those random thoughts that bounce around in my head every now and again.... :dunno:

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And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work TORAHLESS-NESS.

~ Matthew 7:22-23


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:18 pm 
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I think it's only in recent times that any of us began to see that the only way for a marriage contract to be broken, is for one of the parties to that contract to die. You could not take your adulterous spouse back once that spouse remarried.

Since some of the people didn't realize that Y'shuah was much more than an annointed man, but Yah in the flesh, they couldn't comprehend that Yah would seek to totally end the marriage contract with Israel (all of Israel, not just Judah) so that he could reunite Israel into one, and remarry her.

As it was, Y'shuah was continuously claiming the authority of Yah in much of what he did and said, which was offensive to many at that time (and still is). For example:

sa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my honor unto another.


And there are a few other scriptures stating the same thing. KJ says I will not give my GLORY to another. Some take this to mean that Y'shuah can't be the messiah because God will not give his glory to another.

On the other hand, If Y'shuah wasn't a lunatic or a liar, then he'd have to be Yah in the flesh in order to claim that Glory. When Herod tried to claim it, he burst asunder with worms. He didn't die by the hand of men.

So how else was 'all' of Israel to be saved, except by the hand of Yah, himself. He states that he came only for the Lost house of Israel. Who is the 'Lost House of Israel"? It wasn't Judah! And much of that house was among the gentiles, no longer aware of who they were. And they still are.

I think that's part of why the door of salvation is open to all.

Y'shuah's death was the only way he could be reconciled fully to Israel. He's free to re-establish a new contract/covenant, one of the heart ..which is what he wanted in the first place.

Much of Judah is still blinded to all of this which is also why Messiah hasn't yet returned. Until they're ready to cry out in his name, AND they are overwhelmed with current day Esau, he won't come.

I can't say I blame them for rejection of the 'christian' gospel msg. But, I do hope that soon, their eyes will open to truth. It's begun to happen and in that, I rejoice. And, I rejoice in that the bride is beginning to know who she is so that she can take her place as Israel. She is not a replacement or an imposter. She IS Israel.

There is a wedding feast coming. Many were invited, and many turn away. These are those who deny Messiah. They are antichrist, they are false prophets. They are wolves in sheep's clothing. Ignore them. Tend to your own heart and spirit, and Ruac HaKodesh will justify his truth in you.

As it is, many of these people reject Torah in favor of other writings and rabbis. There's no point in worrying about what they think, or why. They don't even want to read Yah's word, preferring men (rabbis) over Yah.

They're already twisted.

I'm not saying all rabbis are twisted. only those who exault themselves above Yah, favoring their own opinions over Yah's word. Rabbinic Judaism is as imperfect as christianity so really, they shouldn't be pointing fingers.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:41 pm 
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MountainRecluse wrote:
I hear this a lot. From Muslims as well. The argument goes there is no need for blood sacrifice and that even God disproves of it:

Isaiah 1

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.


So the "need" for Jesus' blood sacrifice for sins was not even a necessary act. Ipso facto, the NT is full of crap. Jesus was merely one of many false messiah's and was crucified (or if you're Muslim, Jesus was Messiah but spared the crucifixion.) Jesus' later followers concocted the whole story based off of previous pagan mythologies, etc...blah blah

But then how the heck, as a Jew who believes such, deal with this?:

Leviticus 17

10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.

14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.



Conversely, why would one be compelled to believe in Jesus when he states "drink my blood." Obviously, it was figuratively but why make such a statement in the first place, figurative or not? Obviously many turned away from him at that time. You can make the lamb argument but you don't drink the blood of the lamb. And why even make a statement that even remotely goes against the Torah and would intentionally confuse and disturb many?:

"...I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."

Just those random thoughts that bounce around in my head every now and again.... :dunno:


Thanks, brother, for reminding me of this fact according to YHWH's instructions: without the shedding of blood, there is no canceling of sins. The thing that some folks do not recognize is that our Creator Elohim is eternally the Lamb that was already slain before the foundation of the world. He is the Divine Source from which all things flow and exist, even the Sacrifice in metaphor. Therefore, when we come to him with half-ass intent, when our offering is less than honest, less than set-apart, he is none-too-impressed because he was abused and torn and slain and hung and crowned as the King of the curse. I think it is just a complete misunderstanding of who YHWH is from eternity past to eternity future, his nature, his person, and even that short blip +2000 years ago when he came to his own as a Jew, as the Man God, whose purpose was to shed his own pure blood.

One other argument that also must be taken into account is the nature of Zeus, the pagan father of the Greek pantheon, and the slight of hand between the translations of Hebrew texts into Greek "Yah Shuah versus Yay Zeus" into modern Western theological/academic hegemony. "Jews" don't like "Jesus" because he represents that pagan diety of Antiochus Epiphanes, et al, who put a statue of him in their faces, rubbing their noses into pig abominations from their demonic high places. Even the term "Jew" is Romish, a backhanded insult from Latinate folks upon the Yahudim. So when Yay Zeus became Jee Zusss, perhaps folks just find Jesus to be just another representation of Caesar...

:dirol:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:29 am 
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Thanks TJ and MR or this,
I apreciate that I haven't atually posted for a while ( largely to to having not much to add to any of the excellent threads here, as well as circumstances here )

The whole sacrifices thing just shows how fallen the state of man is, as we have just come through Yom kippur, the amount of blood that was shed just for the high priest to even go into the holy place to cleanse it and him before he went to the holy of holies was incredible.
Yet they, nominal Jews, cannot see that and try to get around it by reclassifying things and wriggling to get off the hook.
As you have rightly said their is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood and what blood it was that was shed for us, in order that we lowly earthen sheep could be washed spotless and able to be presented to the most Holy God.

Even our best and greatest deeds are still but filthy rags in his sight without His covering and atoning.
Thanks again guys

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יברכך יהוה וישמרך
יאר יהוה פניו אליך ויחנך
ישא יהוה פניו אליך וישם שלום


Yeh-va-reh-cheh-cha Yahveh veh-yeesh-meh-reh-cha
Ya-air Yahveh pa-naiv ay-leych-cha vee-chu-neh-cha
Yee-sa Yahveh pa-nahv ay-leyh-cha veh-ya-same leh-cha
Shalom


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:41 pm 
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hey if they think they can die totally w/o sin...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:52 pm 
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I'm thinking that he had to shed his blood to sanctify the heavenly temple, and to be annointed as that high priest...that sort of thing. If we look at the duties of the high priest on earth, we get a vision of the priest of priests...the Highest priest.

The blood of bulls and goats had it's purpose, but Y'shuah wouldn't be using the blood of the red heifer.

The remission of sin is something the high priest did thru his duties with the blood and sacrifices and sprinkling blood on the mercy seat etc...Rico is really good at explaining those things.

Y'shuah makes intercession for us in the Holy of Holies..

He offered the blood of a man without sin...not an animal (red heifer or sheep or goats)

I think if we look at things in light of the priesthood, we get a different picture than the one the gentiles painted...gentiles who don't/didn't understand the function of the temple and the priesthood.


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